10kW Hybrid Inverters

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Nov 20, 2019
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Morning all,

I have 3 phase power at home and I'm looking at buying the MPP 10k hybrid inverter as I'm building a 14s100p to get started.

Can anyone recommend any alternative 10k hybrid 3 phase inverters I should look at as well before I buy it?

Cheers everyone,

Darren
 

daromer

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Victron system. It cost 3x the amount but you will save in that money over time.

The MPP hybrid works but there are some disadvantages

1. Its only 1 year warrant
2. Its idle consumption is 7kWh per day
3. It is really max 3.3kW per phase. Over that and it will shut down
4. No support what so everand the communitication to it sucks


It have one big advantage
1. Its cheap as hell


You can check my system out if you want. I run it here at home and have several videos about it. And it have worked quite good but I have to shut it down during the winter becuae i max get 2kWh solar worst winter days comparing to summer when i get 100kWh per day...
 
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Morning Daniel, check your email :-D

7kWh yeah that's a hell of a lot and yep, if your only producing 2kWh per day in the winter, I can see the problem, the inverter is costing you money. I'm just a couple of hours away from you and I'll be installing a much smaller solar array than yours so for me, the problem will be even worse sadly.

Which Victron product are you looking at and what's its idle consumption?

Cheers

Darren
 

caosmen

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Cause i am in the Same problem lets face some Facts.

Price: MPP Hybrid 2500$ = 2250 Euro

included shipping to Germany, 3 Phase Inverter

Price: Same Setup Victron: In total 8755 Euro

3x Victron Energy MultiPlus-II 48/5000/70-50
1x Victron Color Control GX
2x Victron Lynx Distributor
3x Victron SmartSolar MPPT 250/100-Tr

got today a offer by greenakku.de


Those 2 Setups will be same idea of :

Charging batteries if big enough with 200A
Power the home with if needed 10 kw


Lets to some Math:

8755 -2250 = 6505 Euro Victron costs more.

Loosing power in Idle:

Victron = 18 Watt per Inverter = 3x 18 Watt = 1.3 kw lost in 24 hours = 474,4 kw in 1 year
MPP = 190 Watt = 190 x 24 = 4,56 kw lost in 24 hours = 1664,4 kw in 1 year

Victron info from :https://www.victronenergy.de/upload/docu...ger-DE.pdf
MPP i got the info from MPPsolar itself

MPP is loosing 3.2 kw more then Victron.

In Germany if i send not used Watt used by house into the grid i get 12 Cent with my old system but need to pay 8 Cent per kw i use from my own System.

Victron would cost me:
474,4 * 0,08 = 37,92 Euro per year

MPP would cost me
1664,4 * 0,08 = 133,15 Euro per year

Summary:
MPP setup 2250 Euro in total and loosing money by Idle 133,15 per year
Victron setup 8755 Euro in total and loosing money by Idle 37,92 per year

The Victron will safe me per year roughly per year 100 Euro cause idle consumtion is less.
But the initial setup difference would need more then 60 Years to be at the same price as the MPP has.

Important Thing.

Victron 5 years warranty and ppl in the internet use them alot longer and are happy
EU Company and maybe higher standarts then Chinese company.

MPP 1 year warranty. Found ppl who are happy with this modell.

My thaughts after this are i try the MPP cause until i safe money i guess i am dead. So lets try some chinese MPP
 

daromer

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Mpp is 240w Idle.
Its also less efficienct conversion in use
Its also only 1 year warranty and you have to pay for shopping
Its also maaaaax 10kw....



Victron is more efficienct
Victron have proper guarantee
Victeon is nominal its wattage and easy do 2x startup current
Victron is also more stable.


I run mpp. I also had to pay another 1000eur to fix it after 1 year.....

You forgot many factors in your Price. Om pretty sure victron repays within 10 years of even 5. First of all consumption is easy 2* saved with victron ver time than your calculated.

Also note that you need those 7kwh extra per Day just in solar... So in Winter you need plenty of extra panels to cover it. Dont forget that cost ;)


I would easily go victron IF i knew better and had the money.
 
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This truly is the battle of the giants... I totally get both arguments and each has their own merits. It's really interesting when you calculate the actual extra costs again on both sides... I'd like to think that this would be an easy decision but it really isn't.

I have to say at the moment, for me, at the very beginning of the project, I can't afford the extra cost of the Victron and I know I would need to buy more panels to offset the extra losses, but I don't have the space either lol... At this early stage, again for me, it's the MPP but I'll definitely look to see if theres any second hand Victron kit before I say goodbye to my money ;-)
 

daromer

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I bought 10 extra panels.... But it doesnt even get Close during Winter to offseet
Yes mpp is 1 unit comparing and its cheap initially but beware that it is Short term sollution all Day Long.

There is also more alternativets in the middle
 

caosmen

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After Daniels post that he had to pay 1000 Euro again after 1 year i invested today again alot of time and brain power.


Yesterday i just compared the MPPI 10 kw with Victron with the "SAME" setup.

But do i need 10 kw in my house ?

My Stats:

Last year i used 12000 kw to run my house. I know my house need just 800 Watts in IDLE Modus.
My house is heated by electricity too and this one use 2.8 kwh when running.

So bestcase would be 3.6 kwh in Winter. If cooking etc it will be more , but thats the normal.

So what do i need again based on that in Victron.

I phoned today again with greenakku.de

Thats the plan right now:
5 kwp connected to

1xVictron Energy MultiPlus-II 48/5000/70-50 connected with
1x SmartSolar MPPT 250/100

plus 5 kwp conntected to
1x SmartSolar MPPT 250/100

additional i need
Victron Interface MK3-USB
Venus GX
Costs:
1x -II 48/5000/70-50 = 1720 Euro
2x SmartSolar MPPT 250/100 = 910 *2 = 1820 Euro
Victron Interface MK3-USB = 70 Euro

Venus GX = 300 Euro
In Total 3910 Euro , i get 19 % back = 3285 Euro

MPPI would be 2250 Euro

So with this small setup but more efficient to my home i just would pay 50 % more for Victron then MPPI.

Daniels post made me a bad night yesterday since we all pay alot of money and i dont wanna pay after 1 year again 1000 Euro.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge Daniel and after this i think i am happy to invested again today for learning and i will start with this setup.
 

daromer

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I honestly think above is really Good deal. Yes 2x initially but you save alot first years due to efficiency.

And IF you go that route you make me jealous ;)

When im done with My current project i Will for sure look into victron or something in the middle.
 

w0067814

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In many, if not all meters, the meter registers the sum of all three phases. Therefore if you consume 1kw on Phase A, and consume another 1kwh on Phase B, bit export 2kW on Phase C then your total power is zero.

I am assuming you are grid tied. So my question is: do you actually need three phase at all?

If you are grid tied you do *not* need to size for peak power. The cost of chasing peak power is disproportionate to the amount of energy you consume whilst drawing the peak power level. Most people would be well served by a 3kVA single phase inverter when grid tied. Only if you need to run as an island during power failure do you need to consider a larger inverter. Partition your electrical appliances on the distribution board into critical and non-critical loads. Work out the peak power of just the critical maintained loads and size accordingly.

You will not realistically be heating your house in winter with solar so give up on that idea.

Tim
 

caosmen

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Hi Tim. I have right Now 30 kwp at my roof. Missing angle is south. So this 10 kwp new will be just south. Right Now i just buy 3k kw per Year from grid and this is during Winter Time. Everything Else is done by pv. When i calc right i will go down to buy just 1000 kw from the grid in in Winter.
So i safe 2000 kw i buy during this time and i safe the other 6000 kw i use the other Time and dont Need To pay the 8 Cent here in Germany cause of eeg law.
Saving will be around 1000 Euro per Year cause of this again.

And when i Run a home 320 qm with Heating cooking etc for just buying 1000 kw from the grid i cannot complain.


@daniel

I realy like your Comments and you are with your YouTube Stuff a realy great Person that help ppl like me starting from Zero to get it done. Thanks alot
 
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caosmen said:
And when i Run a home 320 qm with Heating cooking etc for just buying 1000 kw from the grid i cannot complain.
Wow you've done a great job, my house is just a little smaller than you yours and I started with 26,000kw per year lol! It's going down now bit still.. Nice job! ;-)
 

daromer

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w0067814 In many places and as in example Sweden you are not allowed to do that. Ie you need to make sure all 3 phases are as even as possible so using power on 1 phase and selling on another is big no no :) One of the things setting up a grid-tie system is to check that.

But yes you are right sizing for peak power is really not realistic for most of us especially when you have the grid available. Thats why i only have 10kW 3phase and not 30kW ;)

Caosmen: Thanks! I really try. Not all my comments may always seem nice but I always try to raise thoughts and get people to think once more when doing things :) We all learn along the way and best way learning is doing it your self. But its always good to see what others f*cked up :D I have done my fair share testing and spending money on stuff that was total waste...
 

w0067814

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daromer said:
w0067814 In many places and as in example Sweden you are not allowed to do that. Ie you need to make sure all 3 phases are as even as possible so using power on 1 phase and selling on another is big no no :) One of the things setting up a grid-tie system is to check that.

In the UK you can export up to 16A per phase with very little questions asked. There are plenty of solar installations exporting on a single phase in houses with three phase supply. Yes the phases do need balancing but at the low power levels I was talking about the grid company is unlikely to care. Heck, even switching on a kettle would provide a greater imbalance than I was discussing.

My parents house has three phase where the lighting and sockets are all on one phase and the night storage heaters are on the other two, so the house is basically single phase during the day and two phase during the night from a current point of view. I doubt they are unusual. The grid looks at averages across hundreds of houses on a transformer.

Caosmen installation is unusual in that it is very large system which I was not aware of, so in his case the point I was making doesn't hold true but I expect for many it would.

PS: Daroma, Caosmen,

What do you have which requires such a large system? I am assuming this is domestic?

Tim
 
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Yeah Tim, its domestic. Here in Sweden, we dont have gas or oil to heat our houses, we only have electric and it costs a small fortune! I would love to call SSE or British Gas like when I used to live there and ask them for a gas supply! It would be one hell of a long copper pipe! Out here in Europe, 3 phase is surprisingly common, especially here in Scandinavia where both me and Daromer live.
Storage heaters... Yep, remember those bad boys... :-/
 

daromer

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w0067814
Usegage is not the same and when building a house you are obligated to actually split the load evenly. Same goes with solar. You can get away with up to 1kw on one phase but when you talk about 5 or even 20kWp that many have here you need to have it 100% equal and you actually need proper 3phase systems that can talk to the grid and export only when allowed basically.

These kind of regulations will come more and more and just the other year they banned tons of inverters due to this :)

Once again dont confuse normal useage to design during beginning and exporting. They have different demands.

example: The grid company one day last year phoned and said: We are at your house now and going to do a check on your system. Because you export some power during the night and thats possible. We think you wired the meter backwards"

This was 50w difference due to export :) Though there was nothing wrong with my system. They just havent checked the papers that said I got battery bank approved and hooked up and therefore can export whenever I want as long as its even. They complained that i exported when there was no Sun.

This is though Sweden but many places have started to make sure systems and power are evenly distributed as good as it can from design perspective.
 

caosmen

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w0067814
I just have sutch a big One since i know i use alot of electricity. And i See the Chance to pay just 8 Cent per kw when buying pv then 30 or in 5 years 40 Cent per kwh in Germany.

Now i am just doing it again more profitable with a diy powerwall. I know it is absolute not normal so you Point is 100% True. I always say i have right Now 3x the avg User and i still buy from grid in the Winter. So you Position is absolute correct.
 

camthecam

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Good thing about Victron as well is resale. If you change your mind or update you can sell easily.
 
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