Batrium Interfacing With Chargers

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bfleury

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Jun 18, 2017
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Hello,

I hope that someone with more knowledge of the Batruim BMS system and how it interfaces with the battery chargers can help this newbie out.
Im planning on paralleling two 48V 14s50p packs together for my powerwall, all cells are between 2100 to 2300mah - LGEAMF11865. I already purchased 28 longmons and 1 shunt for monitoring the packs. I plan on charging the pack when my 10.23kw solar panel system is producing excessive power. I export about 50% or more of my power per week.
The questions I have are:
Would it be better BMS control over both packs by using two shunts, or will the one server the purpose?

The 2nd is on the power supply. I have ordered the Elcon TC charger HK-J 6.6KW from EV Components.
http://evcomponents.com/elcon-tc-hk-j-6600w-charger.html They sent me the following email, so I am wondering which way is the best when using the Batruim system?
Thank you for any help that you can give me on this,
Brianna

From: <email redacted>
Date: 2017-06-15 20:24
To: bfleury
Subject: Fw: Message from EV Components - Setting Confirmation for Elcon TC HK-J 6600W Charger
Hello Brianna,
We received your order and thanks for your order.
Please confirm if your battery pack is 14S Lithium ion nominal 48V 300Ah?
For Elcon charger, we should also know if you need can handle CAN Bus BMS communication version or Enable control(automatic control)
This charger have two version.
First is automatic control model which will work automatically as per max setting request. This is the most convenient type for most of user.
Sencond is CAN Bus communication with BMS version which will work with BMS under the attached terms. You will need to make sure it works with your BMS. It suit for expert user who also make test.
For second model, you can set it via attached terms with BMS communcation.
You will need to make sure your BMS have the proper setting and function so that it will work.

Just choose the version which will suit for your application.
Wish you a nice day and let me know if you need more support
Best regards,
Michael Cheung
www.evcomponents.com
EV Components Store
 

Batrium

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Feb 17, 2017
Messages
74
bfleury said:
The 2nd is on the power supply. I have ordered the Elcon TC charger HK-J 6.6KW from EV Components.
http://evcomponents.com/elcon-tc-hk-j-6600w-charger.html They sent me the following email, so I am wondering which way is the best when using the Batruim system?
Thank you for any help that you can give me on this,

CAN bus control charger has much finercontrol via the BMS (preferred method for last 5 years)than the "enable" version which limits the BMS to interrupt only withthechargelogic dictated by the charger. Have a read ofthe how to guide to setup the TC-Charger.

https://www.batrium.com/pages/how-to-control-a-tc-elcon-charger-with-a-watchmon

Make sure that the maximum voltage of the charger is suitable, we have seen several sent which were too low from supplier. For 4.10v @ 14S configurationthe charger needs to reach at least58v. The charge rate for the model you listed looks to be80A so this is a significant rate that needs to be throttled back to 1A when balancing.

Before purchasing you need to also consider discharge too, my recollection your project is a RV so need to consider all charge and discharging methods.
 

bfleury

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Jun 18, 2017
Messages
11
Batrium said:
bfleury said:
The 2nd is on the power supply. I have ordered the Elcon TC charger HK-J 6.6KW from EV Components.
http://evcomponents.com/elcon-tc-hk-j-6600w-charger.html They sent me the following email, so I am wondering which way is the best when using the Batruim system?
Thank you for any help that you can give me on this,

CAN bus control charger has much finercontrol via the BMS (preferred method for last 5 years)than the "enable" version which limits the BMS to interrupt only withthechargelogic dictated by the charger. Have a read ofthe how to guide to setup the TC-Charger.

https://www.batrium.com/pages/how-to-control-a-tc-elcon-charger-with-a-watchmon

Make sure that the maximum voltage of the charger is suitable, we have seen several sent which were too low from supplier. For 4.10v @ 14S configurationthe charger needs to reach at least58v. The charge rate for the model you listed looks to be80A so this is a significant rate that needs to be throttled back to 1A when balancing.

Before purchasing you need to also consider discharge too, my recollection your project is a RV so need to consider all charge and discharging methods.

Thank you for taking the time to answer this one.

I read the link you posted, I'm glad you have such a great FAQ section. The project I'm actually doing is add a battery powered inverter to my solar panel system. My current StorEdge system now shuts down when ever the grid goes down. I want to add a second inverter that I can run my house on during this situation and also to supply a base of around 1.5kw to cover usage during the remaining high cost time of use, after the sun goes down. I plan on charging the battery during excessive solar power production and/or at night when the power is cheaper, if needed.

My planned 18650 battery will be 2 14s60p strings in parallel. The batteries 2100mah to 2300mah LGEAMF11865. I already have ordered the Batrium BMS system with 14 longmons and 1 shunt. ( I'm still wondering if it would be best to have one shunt for each string? ) I'm not sure what would be a good inverter for the 240/120ac system here in Wisconsin ... suggestions appreciated. ;)

I went with the Elcon TC style charger per Batrium's recommendation. I also went with the higher output charger because I may need to charge at a higher rate during the day. That is way I picked the TC HK-J6600 unit. EV Components sent me the following documents so I can check if this unit will work with the BMS properly. They told me that the unit output can be controlled by the CAN bus communication. They sent the protocol sheets to me, which I'm attaching.

Will this unit CAN bus specsnwork OK with the Batrium, any special programming issues? Do I need to purchase any additional interface items to go between the charger and the BMS? Lastly, if the charger is too big, would I be better off with the smaller charger shown in the BMS how to FAQ?


Darn, the message keeps telling me my message is too long. Trying to put the EV Components info here.

View attachment 9
View attachment 1








Or they give me these options, which I don't think would work out for me.

Thank you for your help. Just getting into this area and I'm enjoying learning, but the meds they have me on right now really aren't helping me to figure out things on my own. I'm so glad I found this forum of "Brain People" :)




image_gdpbly.jpg

image_yinlkv.jpg
 

Attachments

  • CAN Bus Communication Spec.doc
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  • Elcon TC HK 6.6KW EVComponents.pdf
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  • CAN Bus Communication Spec.pdf
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daromer

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The current BMS system only supports 1 shunt. For external use you can add as many as you want :)
 

Joost2

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Jun 21, 2017
Messages
119
Rhbpowerwall said:
Also - losses are everywhere in our systems - I bet I lose more 'energy' in the cables between my panels & charge controller than I ever would balancing.

Use bigger cables;-P


@bfleury

I read you have the storedge system.
Why shut the system down when the grid goes off?

Here I'm preparing my battery bank to test it on my solartracker with 700pW power. If thiswork and I understand the system I was planing to make a 10Kw ba hooked on SolarEdge inverter/Storedge. But do you have LG Chem battery or tesla's powerwall.
 

bfleury

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Joined
Jun 18, 2017
Messages
11
Joost2 said:
Rhbpowerwall said:
Also - losses are everywhere in our systems - I bet I lose more 'energy' in the cables between my panels & charge controller than I ever would balancing.

Use bigger cables;-P


@bfleury

I read you have the storedge system.
Why shut the system down when the grid goes off?

Here I'm preparing my battery bank to test it on my solartracker with 700pW power. If thiswork and I understand the system I was planing to make a 10Kw ba hooked on SolarEdge inverter/Storedge. But do you have LG Chem battery or tesla's powerwall.



Hi,

I paid extra for the StorEdge to use a Tesla Powerwall. I've had one on order since they first came out, since the 1st version I paid the downpayment for the PowerWall2 and just recently got a email saying I may get mine after Oct. I cancelled the order after finding this site and decided to do one myself. You have to add the cost of changing your service again in Milwaukee area, plus the required "Commissioning, Authorized - Licensed contractor installation costs". They what you to go from 2 meters to 3 meters so they know what your battery is doing? They had it so you had to have 5 meters here, but the contractors got them to go with the 3. I have to pay a monthly per meter charge here on them also.

I then found out that the only battery the StorEdge will accept is the LG and Tesla, the tech help people were pretty short with me and just stated it was impossible to run any other type of battery power into the unit to power the critical load output. So it will be cheaper to save the Tesla costs and just build my own wall and install a separate inverter system for it.

PS. I did figure a way to get around their restrictions to use the StorEdge. I ordered a P400 converter, added it to a string and instead of attaching a solar panel to it, I'm just feeding it battery power. It does have the same issue of being shut down when the grid goes down though.

Hope this helps you.
 

Joost2

Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2017
Messages
119
bfleury said:
Joost2 said:
Rhbpowerwall said:
Also - losses are everywhere in our systems - I bet I lose more 'energy' in the cables between my panels & charge controller than I ever would balancing.

Use bigger cables;-P


@bfleury

I read you have the storedge system.
Why shut the system down when the grid goes off?

Here I'm preparing my battery bank to test it on my solartracker with 700pW power. If thiswork and I understand the system I was planing to make a 10Kw ba hooked on SolarEdge inverter/Storedge. But do you have LG Chem battery or tesla's powerwall.


Hi,

I paid extra for the StorEdge to use a Tesla Powerwall. I've had one on order since they first came out, since the 1st version I paid the downpayment for the PowerWall2 and just recently got a email saying I may get mine after Oct. I cancelled the order after finding this site and decided to do one myself. You have to add the cost of changing your service again in Milwaukee area, plus the required "Commissioning, Authorized - Licensed contractor installation costs". They what you to go from 2 meters to 3 meters so they know what your battery is doing? They had it so you had to have 5 meters here, but the contractors got them to go with the 3. I have to pay a monthly per meter charge here on them also.

I then found out that the only battery the StorEdge will accept is the LG and Tesla, the tech help people were pretty short with me and just stated it was impossible to run any other type of battery power into the unit to power the critical load output. So it will be cheaper to save the Tesla costs and just build my own wall and install a separate inverter system for it.

PS. I did figure a way to get around their restrictions to use the StorEdge. I ordered a P400 converter, added it to a string and instead of attaching a solar panel to it, I'm just feeding it battery power. It does have the same issue of being shut down when the grid goes down though.

Hope this helps you.






In the Netherlands you can install what you will the only rule is that if you produce more electricity than you use you get normal KWh price but after 5000Kwh you will get 7 cent a KWh.

As far I can see the Storedge will work with the Batrium bms because Itcan talks like LG battery. I think if you have the whole SolarEdge system is a good investment because of the warranty. Can you tell me if your supplier setup the panels specially for the Storedge? I mean not big strings but parallel groups?
 
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Messages
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14s100p, Batrium install completed this past weekend, and now have everything functioning, shunt to be installed soon, possibly tonight.

Questions:
Does battery pack balancing occur automatically, or is there something I need to request in the software to make that happen? Or will it happen upon charging and discharging?

Pack number #1 reporting only3.79 volts, others are 4.0 to 4.10, most around 4.10. The packs are not yet connected to my solar charger, and have NEVER been charged or discharged. Only charged up during cell capacity testing, but has been several months since capacity testing occurred. All cells were checked prior to pack construction, and no cells were used that had dropped below 4.0 volts. Should I wait until all packs have successfully charged and then discharged before removing the pack for troubleshooting?

Sorry, but still a newbie here...
 

wim

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Apr 6, 2017
Messages
560
Balancing will be done when packs reach "full" state (top balance)... you can set this in the cellmon settings, this is the bypass voltage.
As an option you can select a second balancing point ( in idle time, same voltage, .... ) also in the cellmon settings in the "extra bypass mode" dropdown menu... but again this is optional.

A difference of 0.3V on the low voltage pack seems a lot to me... for shure on a 100P pack, even after a few months of resting there should be almost no voltage drop.... a drainer might be the cause ... or maybe something went wrong during assembly?
I would try to charge this packup on his own and check voltage after a week or so, if not possible keep an close eye on it while charging the whole set, if it stays the lowest pack after initial balancing check the pack for drainer cells.
Be carefull not overcharge the other packs ! if your batrium settings are ok, it will let you know if something is wrong, but it will not prevent overcharging if your charger is not controlled by it or if you have no shunt trip to disconnect the battery.

Keep one eye (or two )on the batrium dashboard at all times during first charge ;)
 

daromer

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Messages
5,671
If you have not done anything then you got self discharging cells in the pack with 3.79 and should be verified!

Regarding balancing you need to set that up. There are so many settings you can set to balance but the basic is top balance when go above xx volt.




Start with this one and I hope you get some answers
 

wim

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Ahhh a video, so much better than words..... while you are at it, watch all of Daromer's vids, time well spend.
And do not forget to like them :)
 
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wim said:
Balancing will be done when packs reach "full" state (top balance)... you can set this in the cellmon settings, this is the bypass voltage.
As an option you can select a second balancing point ( in idle time, same voltage, .... ) also in the cellmon settings in the "extra bypass mode" dropdown menu... but again this is optional.

A difference of 0.3V on the low voltage pack seems a lot to me... for shure on a 100P pack, even after a few months of resting there should be almost no voltage drop.... a drainer might be the cause ... or maybe something went wrong during assembly?
I would try to charge this packup on his own and check voltage after a week or so, if not possible keep an close eye on it while charging the whole set, if it stays the lowest pack after initial balancing check the pack for drainer cells.
Be carefull not overcharge the other packs ! if your batrium settings are ok, it will let you know if something is wrong, but it will not prevent overcharging if your charger is not controlled by it or if you have no shunt trip to disconnect the battery.

Keep one eye (or two )on the batrium dashboard at all times during first charge ;)
Replaced the low voltage pack, and new pack started out at 4.13, now top balanced down to 4.10. Is there any way to check the low voltage pack for bad cells without unsoldering and testing voltage on each cell individually? I tested them without unsoldering, and finding 4.06-4.10 voltage across the pack. But since all soldered in parallel, would expect that.

Someone also suggested charging up the low voltage pack by itself. What device would you use to do this on an 100p pack?


Getting the shunt ready for installation. Got terminals ready to go. Unable to get ANY of them to click into place no matter how hard I pushed on the wires by themselves, or with a tiny screwdriver. Anybody else finding this to be a problem? Tempted to install and see if it functions...
 

daromer

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Charles: Yes charge it up and see if it still falls down and no there is no way more than splitting it up. You could do 50/50 principle and potentially dont have to redo them all but that takes ages.
You can charge it with anything giving 4.2V and enough current to get them topped off.


What is it you cant click into place? Images/video?
 
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daromer said:
Charles: Yes charge it up and see if it still falls down and no there is no way more than splitting it up. You could do 50/50 principle and potentially dont have to redo them all but that takes ages.
You can charge it with anything giving 4.2V and enough current to get them topped off.


What is it you cant click into place? Images/video?

"Batrium BMS - Beginners installation guide" YOU TUBE video that you posted about 9 months ago, about 19 minutes into the video you go over the shunt installation and getting the terminals to "click" into place. I have not been able to get any of the 4 to click, but they feel like they are in place...The other end has 4 wires that connect to terminals on the Watchmon. I am inclined not to worry about feeling or hearing the click, and just see if it installs in the software and functions correctly. Should have some time to do it tonight. Was just wondering if other people that are using this shunt were having the same issues as me.

Off topic here, but as far as battery pack chargers are concerned, can you or anyone else give me some recommendations on one to purchase, or how to make a simple charger from an old computer power supply?
 

daromer

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Ah that click. Can you pull them out again? If not... then they are in there :)

With a computer power supply you can power a DPS unit. They are killer things! They have a 20A unit that just is awesome! I did a video about it just days ago too if you check that out!

 
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daromer said:
Ah that click. Can you pull them out again? If not... then they are in there :)

With a computer power supply you can power a DPS unit. They are killer things! They have a 20A unit that just is awesome! I did a video about it just days ago too if you check that out!

No clicks, and can still pull out. Guess I need a special tool that can push that terminal in from both sides, maybe 2 small screwdrivers used simultaneously. Just afraid going to break it...

Will watch the video above when I get off work and have SOUND. Will this device charge an 100p pack of 18650's on the bench? If so, may have another side project! Have several old but functional computer power supplies just laying around.
 

Wattsup

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CharlesFrancisSpeakman said:
daromer said:
Ah that click. Can you pull them out again? If not... then they are in there :)
No clicks, and can still pull out. Guess I need a special tool that can push that terminal in from both sides, maybe 2 small screwdrivers used simultaneously. Just afraid going to break it...

I had some issues with the molex connector pins.
You can take the front off from memory which helped me
 
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Wattsup said:
CharlesFrancisSpeakman said:
daromer said:
Ah that click. Can you pull them out again? If not... then they are in there :)
No clicks, and can still pull out. Guess I need a special tool that can push that terminal in from both sides, maybe 2 small screwdrivers used simultaneously. Just afraid going to break it...

I had some issues with the molex connector pins.
You can take the front off from memory which helped me
Disassembled the plug from both sides, was able to get the molex connector pins ALL the way in, then reassembled front and back, and finally got the shunt to work. Hope the new shunt they are using will be a bit easier. This one is being discontinued.
 

daromer

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The new shunt dont have that connector no and they did in the end supply premade wires so users did not get issues with that plug.
 
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daromer said:
The new shunt dont have that connector no and they did in the end supply premade wires so users did not get issues with that plug.

Sounds like will be much better. Anyway, mine is working now.

Watched your video on the DPS5020 build. Ready to order the box and kit to build, but am still unclear how to power this unit from 120volt AC house current. Can you use an ATX Power Supply from an old computer to supply power? Or what else?
 
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