Battery offer received. Any opinion is welcome

Hans Tuchel

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Joined
Jul 15, 2018
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38
I got the following offer from China. According to the seller, they are manufacturing new batteries.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find any information in the net.

Any input is welcome. Not sure if my table is correct.


image_zlsiqc.jpg


7s80 is wrong in the table. I guess it should be 4s80p (4x20 rows)
 
This is a very big company ...here's a video about them ....

I'm sure they can be trusted and that the specks are fairly reliable ....

fantastic price , but what about shipping and import taxes???
 
Probably not worth it after you got them shipped and imported. Also, do they supply a proper datasheet for the cells?
Also don't forget the amount of work you have to put in to assemble a battery from 18650s. I think it's questionable to buy new 18650s if you want to build a large battery.
 
You might be looking at $200-300 per kWh completed... For they type of money, you can buy EV cells and save a ton of time and money not needing to package the cells into a module.

That said my biggest concern would be track-record, datasheet, quality, cycle life. I would consider something like this to be an unknown manufacture when compared to LG, Samsung, Panasonic and the rest of them.
 
Cool video. Wonder if the workers are forced to live on the site. Looks like apartments on property?
 
What's probably going to kill this is shipping.
 
ozz93666 said:
This is a very big company ...here's a video about them ....

I'm sure they can be trusted and that the specks are fairly reliable ....

fantastic price , but what about shipping and import taxes???

Since I'm located in the Philippines, it's only a few days shipping. Based on my inquiry, there are no import taxes for batteries here.


DarkRaven said:
Probably not worth it after you got them shipped and imported. Also, do they supply a proper datasheet for the cells?
Also don't forget the amount of work you have to put in to assemble a battery from 18650s. I think it's questionable to buy new 18650s if you want to build a large battery.

I already requested the data sheet and I'll post it here as soon I receive it.

I'm not worried about the work. That's what most of us doing here.


CrimpDaddy said:
You might be looking at $200-300 per kWh completed... For they type of money, you can buy EV cells and save a ton of time and money not needing to package the cells into a module.

That said my biggest concern would be track-record, datasheet, quality, cycle life. I would consider something like this to be an unknown manufacture when compared to LG, Samsung, Panasonic and the rest of them.

Hi, Crimp daddy,

here in the Philippines we have close to zero EV's. Maybe a few in Manila, but none here in the south (Davao City).

I wish I could get my hands on a EV pack...

Maybe I'll order 100 or so and see how they work out under load.


Bubba said:
Cool video. Wonder if the workers are forced to live on the site. Looks like apartments on property?

Workers won't be forced to live there, but most of them might come from the far province and they are happy to be able to life there. It's as well an advantage if they don't need to commute every day.


BlueSwordM said:
What's probably going to kill this is shipping.

I'm living in the Philippines. That's like 3 days shipping and shipping from China to here is pretty cheap. For a 20 footer dry container van you are looking at around USD 300!!!


Headrc said:
I sent you a PM Hans regarding your battery needs.

Got it and replied, thanks!
 
Hi, soulmates...

I received now the data sheets for the batteries.

Please check and give me feedback.

Hans
 

Attachments

  • 2600mAh.pdf
    304 KB · Views: 1,639
  • 3000mAh.pdf
    282.3 KB · Views: 294
Well, the spec sheets are not as bad as some of the others I've seen. But it still doesn't look good.

Two aspects in particular are odd:

1. The 2600mAh model is a 4.20V cell while the 3000mAh model is a LiHV cell with 4.35V end of charge voltage.
2. The discharge currents are incredibly low. It's normal for the standard discharge because that is used to determine the nominal capacity but the max. discharge is incredibly low as well.

Given the fact that they claim that these cells come straight from their own production lines I think they are underperforming and I think it's worrying that the manufacturer a) has no confidence in his product and/or b) knows that he only makes underperforming, low quality products.
Or they don't make all of the cells themselves and put some recycled cells they've found outside other companies factory gates, you know, near the thrash bins, into the mix so you never know what you're getting and therefore they have to keep the specs low.

I wouldn't trust them for a second. This doesn't look like a quality product and I would strongly recommend not to buy these.
 
DarkRaven said:
Well, the spec sheets are not as bad as some of the others I've seen. But it still doesn't look good.

Two aspects in particular are odd:

1. The 2600mAh model is a 4.20V cell while the 3000mAh model is a LiHV cell with 4.35V end of charge voltage.
2. The discharge currents are incredibly low. It's normal for the standard discharge because that is used to determine the nominal capacity but the max. discharge is incredibly low as well.

Given the fact that they claim that these cells come straight from their own production lines I think they are underperforming and I think it's worrying that the manufacturer a) has no confidence in his product and/or b) knows that he only makes underperforming, low quality products.
Or they don't make all of the cells themselves and put some recycled cells they've found outside other companies factory gates, you know, near the thrash bins, into the mix so you never know what you're getting and therefore they have to keep the specs low.

I wouldn't trust them for a second. This doesn't look like a quality product and I would strongly recommend not to buy these.

Thank you, DarkRaven. I will try to clarify these questions with them.

Considering the low price and my planned setup of 48V, which gives a lower discharge rate, would they still be workable?
 
From the specs the 3000 does not look like a good idea it's pushing the cell at a higher voltage, that's how they get the higher capacity , this will reduce the cycles (despite what the specs say), anyway it's price does not make it a sensible idea ...

The 2600 still looks a good deal for powerwalls , they come from the manufacturer already spot welded in 80p packs which is a big advantage , Even electric vehicles could use these , most people want more than an 2 hours drive time ... those low discharge rates are not really a problem, especially for powerwallers ...

You get what you pay for , I would advise buy... Don't charge above 4V to get a long life
 
It's not that it wouldn't be workable or that it would be a problem. It's just that it's really unusually low and that tells you something. On the one hand it's good that they are honest about it but on the other hand it's showing that these aren't proper cells in one way or the other. If they were proper cells they would offer a higher discharge current. All the other high capacity cells usually offer discharge currents between 5A and 10A.
 
If you wanted LiFePo4 cells, I've purchased large banks from these guys & been very happy so far:
Jiangsu Frey Battery Technology Co.ltd
https://frey.en.alibaba.com/
Let me know if you want details for the contact I dealt with, she was great.

The packs I got had a nice support frame design & they built them into custom steel cases for me as well.
 
Here the reply from China... (how you guys could even think they couldn't be good... Man, they are from The China):


DearHans Th. Tuchel,

Good Day.

Iusedtogiveyouinformationaboutdigitalbatteries.Themaximumdischargecurrentis1C.
I know youneed the high-ratebattery.Wealsohavehighratebatterieshere,thedischargecurrentis5C.
All of our battery isternarybattery.Mainmaterialofpositiveelectrode isLi?NiCoMn?O2.
Thisistheworld'sbest18650batterytype.ThefamouselectriccarTeslaisalsousingthistypeofbattery.

Zhuoneng is a famous brand in China and the fourth 18650 battery manufacturer in the world.
Zhuoneng has three manufacturing base, a total area of 280 thousand square meters, more than 3000 employees,

all the products passed the Ce RoHS MSDS UN38.3 Test,are exported to Europe, North America,
Southeast Asia and other more than 30 countries and regions. It was listed on the new third board in March 2016 (Stock Code: 836483).

My company is asubsidiaryofZhuonengandareresponsiblefortheinternationalmarket.
Wecanalsocustomizebatterypacksaccordingtoyourneeds,variousvoltages,variousdischargecurrents,variouscapacities.
All of battery are absolutely quality guaranteed,pleaserestassuredtobuy.

Please feel free to contact us for any questions,thank you!

Sam
 
Wow...I'm not impressed by that answer. It falls to pieces if we check the facts.

I expected ICR cells here because of the low discharge rating. They are saying it's NCM. If it is then it's even more confusing because one of the benefits of NCM over ICR should be high power. Now, with NCM, you can also trade power for capacity, but the cells are only 2600mAh and 3000mAh, so they didn't do that. It makes no sense what they are saying. Also, they say these are 1C cells. They aren't according to their own datasheet. The 3000mAh cell is specified for 0.5C. Not sure what their 5C cells would look like, but these cells here should already be the 5C ones. At least they should be closer to 5C than 0.5C, that's for sure.

Whether NCM is the best 18650 battery type or not is highly debateable as it often is the case when someone states that xyz is the best. It depends on the use case. Tesla is using them? Well, no, they aren't as far as I know. Tesla is using NCA.

Zhuoneng is the fourth 18650 manufacturer in the world? What about Samsung, LG, Sony and Panasonic? So they are the fifth at best. If we still count Sanyo they are the sixth at best. I think if you are listed on this list behind the usual suspects then it doesn't matter if you are fifth, sixth or 48th. You're down there with the rest of the bunch, mixing electrolyte in your back yard in an old cooking pot.

Maybe they will become a major manufacturer at some point. But the time certainly hasn't come yet. At the moment it looks like hopes, dreams and marketing.
 
I guess the best might be to order a few and check them out. I believe in a 48V PowerWall setup 1C or even 0.5C should be just fine, agree?
 
HansTuchel said:
I guess the best might be to order a few and check them out. I believe in a 48V PowerWall setup 1C or even 0.5C should be just fine, agree?


I would be inclined to order a sample, just out of curiosity if nothing else. Test them. If they tested good, no self discharge, consistent capacity per cell, ect. I would be inclined to build perhaps a 1kw/h pack and test is for several months.

Have you asked about minimum order quantity?
 
HansTuchel said:
I guess the best might be to order a few and check them out. I believe in a 48V PowerWall setup 1C or even 0.5C should be just fine, agree?

Agreed ... they look fine ...A big company like this is not going to play too many games .... they want to establish a reputation , ...

no point in buying a few to check them out ... of course they're going to work ... the unknown is how many cycles you get from them , and you can't test for this ...

Important when dealing with such companies that you present yourself as a possiblerepeat buyer , not a one off powerwall builder ... They want you to buy from them again so will try tomake sure you're happy with the product.
 
Also, in the purchasing of a few, don't mention they are a sample. Otherwise they may send you cherry picked quality cells to test. Kinda like that one company did to Pete and the powertool battery pack.
 
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