BMS integration to Victron + system design

Redpacket

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 28, 2018
Messages
1,263
dewki said:
The Winston260-400AhCells arespecified to a operating voltage 3.8V - 2.8V (80% DOD). Recommended charging at 3.65V per cell.
For the curious:https://www.ev-power.eu/Winston-40Ah-200Ah/

Be warned LiFePo4 cells are likely to get damaged >3.5V/cell IMHO.
You need to characterize your own cells & look for the point where the voltage starts to climb quickly on charge & drop quickly on discharge.
These points are where damage & swelling will start & there are many tails of woe re swelling cells.
The manufacturers seem to give these higher voltages (3.65 or more) to maximize the apparent capacity but max reported capacity does not equal long life....
For my LiFePo4's this is ~2.85V & 3.50V so I've set my system for ~2.9V min & ~3.41 max to "stay on the plateau" of the typical charge curve.
"Fully charged" SoC is still reached with a lower charge voltage when the tail current drops away.
 

daromer

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 8, 2016
Messages
5,564
Sean im One of them. At most i Ran 4 on same cell. Not doing it now but wanted to see if it was possible. I have also added multiple Ones when adding new or uneven packs.

There have been others but i can never remember names. Can be found in projecta section.
 

Sean

Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2016
Messages
946
daromer said:
Sean im One of them. At most i Ran 4 on same cell. Not doing it now but wanted to see if it was possible. I have also added multiple Ones when adding new or uneven packs.

There have been others but i can never remember names. Can be found in projecta section.

The only way adding multiple mons (to increase the total per cell bypass current), when each mon has a slightly different bypass voltage, is ever going to work is if you charge at a rate high enough such that the cell voltage is still increasing (to encompass the parallel mons bypass voltage window), even when that cell is in bypass - which is both pointless and wasteful - you will also have to actively cool each mon, or lower its bypass current low enough so that it is safety thermally balanced (or risk thermal bypass).

The only documented mention of anyone attempting what you recommended was Paul Holmes last year on the FB group, he quickly realised the futility, which prompted Jarons comment about possibly enabling user calibration of mons.

There are no projects in the project section where users are successfully using multiple mons to increase the bypass current on a single cell - let me know if you remember who these folks are please.


daromer said:
From batrium you can balance 10A from a single cell if you want. Just add 10 longmons as example.

All I'm asking for is examples of anyone who is successfully doing that which you have suggested is a trivial matter in the above comment.
 

daromer

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 8, 2016
Messages
5,564
Yes if cells get out of balance the voltage will raise. Especially if you dont have the BMS to control the charger.
Same goes with auto-level. If you set the auto level correctly, enough mons will engage and start balance.

Unless you have tested this your self Sean i dont know why you comment stating it wont work when I for instance have done it and it works fine. I have done 4 of them on same cell equal 4A continues balancing in my setup. I do not see the issue adding 6 more doing the same... No they wont start at same time but eventually they all run when needed!

We done agree and if you want to discuss this further please create a thread about it. This have become way OT in this one.
 

Sean

Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2016
Messages
946
daromer said:
Unless you have tested this your self Sean i dont know why you comment stating it wont work when I for instance have done it and it works fine.

We have tested multiple mons on single cells, at great length - it doesnt work, for the reasons I've previously mentioned.
 

Batrium

Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2017
Messages
74
Sean said:
daromer said:
From batrium you can balance 10A from a single cell if you want. Just add 10 longmons as example.

How do you ensure that all mons turn on at exactly the same voltage ?

Its not ideal to run multiple cell monitors. Except temporarilywhilst a cell block is in recovery when you are addinga cell blockwith a different SoC% to the rest of the battery string. Eachcell monitor consumes 1.4mA so a single unit is significantbetter than multiple to keep the system in balance.

[size=small]Multiple monitorsonly makesense typically for LiFePO4 on large capacity cells and thecharger lacks the ability to charge slowly. Hence when the charger over charges any individualcell the extra monitorshave the ability to accelerate the discharge back to balancing threshold.

[/size]
Not sure why people do it, I dont ! Except temporarily for the scenario aboveuntil they are all back in balance with all cells held at their threshold for a period of timeand then I immediately reconfigure to 1 cell monitor per cell in series.

Lithium-Ion chemistry (i.e. LMC, etc..) are a completely different characteristic and shouldbe handleddifferently with extra bypass AutoLevel. ForLiFePO4 chemistry beyond 3.50v this quickly goes up and when you stop charging the voltage immediately drops, there are other methods to handle this which is a different discussion and some have adopted additional monitors.
 

slimf

Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Messages
144
As you have three phase, and your PV generation split across all three phases, how do you plan to monitor your current mains usage (feed in/out)?

This would require three current clamps would it not?
The multiplus is single phase and would need to control its output to achieve as close to 0 grid transfer as possible. (Ie: its output needs to match the total sum of your three phase grid input)

Im currently hung up on this question with my enphase 3 phase array and how to best AC couple a leaf pack.
 

dewki

New member
Joined
Aug 12, 2019
Messages
6
@slimf
Victron offers a smart meter that monitors 3 phases.
https://www.victronenergy.com/live/energy-meters:start
Connecting the EM24 to the VenusGX will enable the ESS functionality I am looking for.

My understanding is that I cannot achieve any true phase balancing via the victron infrastructure. (Phase compensation is not really balancing as far as I understand). I think it can be worked around by thinking closely about what loads are connected to which phase.
That is, loads that never stop during the summer time, should be on the same phase as the Victron infrastructure. In my case, that would be ventilation (heat exchanger) and fridges. Those are consuming approx 0.6-0.7kW constantly during night time. If I can get those on the same phase (if not already in place - I've not looked into it), I would be content.

Does this makes sense?
 

100kwh-hunter

Active member
Joined
Mar 2, 2019
Messages
675
I am getting my system on paper, Batrium and Victron.
Within a conversation with a Victron salesman, they state that it is not possible to have Batrium with a 3 phase Victron system?
He also stated that it was not advised to use Batrium with any Victron system?
I am getting really confused.
 

Sean

Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2016
Messages
946
100kwh-hunter said:
Within a conversation with a Victron salesman, they state that it is not possible to have Batrium with a 3 phase Victron system?
He also stated that it was not advised to use Batrium with any Victron system?

Did the "victron salesman" provide, or did you ask for, a plausible reason why not ?

Other than Victron won't support a third party BMS, which is perfectly understandable.
 

daromer

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 8, 2016
Messages
5,564
Of course they wouldn't advice it. Why would they allow any other vendor interact with their system if they doesn't get paid for it :p

The 3phase part could be that Victron would be 3 units and that Batrium might not be able to handle all 3 properly? (Just wildly guessing) - Some day I hope that I also have the blue wonder units at home :p
 

Sean

Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2016
Messages
946
Venus is open, Victron historically released (but dont these days) all that's required for third party manufacturers wanting to interact - but zero support.

No issues with WM4 and Victron in a 3ph configuration - but zero support from Victron if a battery or BMS related issue occurs (as you'dexpect) - you'll likely not get any help or support with a DIY 3ph installation from Victron either, as they'd prefer you to consult with a dealer for design & installation.

The Victron salesperson won'tearn any commission if you buy from Batrium.
 
Top