Computer UPS via 18650? Or just a general purpose power bank with a big inverter?

dc443

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There are some issues with the use of 18650 Li-ion in systems that expect SLA cells. I think This link does a pretty good job of explaining why.

The situation I have is I'd like to have a UPS to use with computers, and I have a ton of 18650 cells I've got lying around, but there are no circuits that I can find that are really made for the use of 18650 Li-ion cells in this use case.

The UPS I have is kind of old and makes an unacceptable buzzing noise unless it's running off battery, about half the time. My current house does have reliable power service, so I'm not too worried about simply not using this UPS, but I'd like to look into what my options might be.

The main thing about a UPS or power bank if its main purpose is for powering or assisting in powering a computer is that it would be a good idea to somehow inject it halfway inside of the computer's own PSU: converting from DC (whether from solar panels or from a mains 120VAC --> 19VDC inverter) to the PC power needs (lots of 12V and the rest of the ATX stuff) is highly efficient.

So it comes down to how much flexibility we can accept with the whole setup. If we want to have a computer that accepts 120VAC and it isn't practical to use a separated power system in it, then there's not much of a way to avoid having the inverting circuitry.

I wanted to ask if anyone has experience comparing using a "battery bank" with an inverter as a UPS, vs using a regular UPS (whether modified for Lithium or not). Obviously the latter will have a USB connection that should handle auto shutdown for you, but honestly I'm kind of fine without that feedback, the only time my computer is doing something that is important that it stays running, I will be physically present anyway.

I am thinking that since I have so many cells to put to use, I really should ignore the urge to make an efficient system, and just try to stick to trying to build a powerful general purpose battery bank that I can use as a UPS with my computer(s), and the rest of my cells can go toward a powerwall or electric vehicles or something. I have enough cells that if I want I can make a power bank with enough capacity to keep the computer running for a whole day. As much as I'd like to explore "separated" DC power supply for my PCs (see https://www.mini-box.com/DC-DC and https://hdplex.com/hdplex-400w-hi-fi-dc-atx-power-supply-16v-24v-wide-range-voltage-input.html ) my current build uses a traditional power supply and the form factor isn't suitable for switching over (not to mention 400W wouldn't be enough).
 
You can use 18650's with most UPS units. You just have to make sure of the voltage range of the unit, or use a buck converter to go from the battery to the UPS.
Those PicoPCU's for the computers are fine, except that they are low wattage. Most computers will use far more than 200W while running. If you have onboard video and a mid-grade cpu, then it probably will work. But as soon as you drop an addin video card into the mix, you run into issues easily. If you have a spindle harddrive (the older platter style drives) this will be an issue as well. SSD's use very little power so if you have those then that's a bonus.

The HDPlex PSU's seem to be really good. I've seen them be used on LTT for certain projects, and they usually won't use products that are weak, under-powered, or over-rated (unless they are doing a video specifically on those things). So those PSU units would be good to use. They just dang expensive from what I've seen.
 
I have used APC UPS(s) to protect my servers for many years. When I started with 18650 - I discovered that 7s7p is nearly 100% compatible as a replacement for the Lead Acids. The voltage range for APCs is around 3.95v -> 3.0v (cutt-off) - so you loose a bit of power between 4.2v->3.95v as far as 'run-time' but 18650 7s7p can fit in a bit more power than the standard Lead Acids - so it matches close enough for me :)

UPS vs Battery->Inverter. A UPS *is* a battery + inverter but also has a built-in charger and auto-fail-over. So if you're comfortable with UPS(s) that operate with 24v nominal lead-acids, I think you'll find 7s 18650 a reasonable choice. You can set the 18650 battery outside the case so you can build as big a one as you want to achieve the run-time you're after.
 
For shoving Li-ion into a UPS enclosure, yeah it definitely seems like with 7s on a 24V system (rather than trying to do 4s on a 12V, where you lose a lot of capacity, and where 3S would be getting overcharged) is the sweet spot, and it would totally work. Unfortunately I don't believe my particular unit is a 24V unit, but then again I want to be getting rid of it anyway because of the unpleasant noise it makes...

I just want to see if there is some sort of reasonable way to add the ability to add a component to a regular machine that would allow you to feed it 19V or 12V UPS power, but standard computer power supplies aren't made to support that. Even by using a "separated" power supply system such as those HDPlex systems, there would be some missing circuitry around performing the cutover when the AC/DC power source cuts out in order for it to seamlessly switch it over to the UPS DC power source. I guess I'm wondering whether there is anything off the shelf that could work for this.

Maybe it could work to pick a suitable voltage. perhaps the AC/DC brick is just directly connected to both the battery bank and the PC. We just have some kind of suitable BEC for the battery. When the AC/DC is disconnected (e.g. power goes out) the PC naturally starts running off the battery bank.

When the power comes back on, the BEC will begin to manage the charging process, to help ensure that the AC/DC brick isn't overloaded.

The logic to let the computer shut itself down when the voltage reaches a certain level could be very easily done with a microcontroller.

I may try to give this a go with my next SFF PC build. My recent PC build is SFF but it's using a 750W SFX PSU so it's more like a standard PC. Actually this PSU has been giving me some headaches because it has some annoying coil whine when the machine idles. But it's just not the right kind of setup for efficient usage of space for one of those 800W HDPlex units! My next build though I will try to set it up this way with the separate power supply units to allow for this type of usage, I think it will be really neat, not having AC inversion will gain a lot of efficiency.
 
i always found it strange how we go from AC (wall) to DC ups battery, then from DC (battery) to modified AC (ups output), then from modified AC to DC (desktop power supply)

is there a better way?

maybe a battery pack with regulated outputs? +12v, +5v and -5v that the computer could run directly off of...
then you would only need to charge the battery pack.
AC (wall) to DC (pack) to DC (computer)
 
Agree that 12v (3s or 4s) is not a good match to 18650. It just doesn't work. However, 24v nominal is a good match.

I have 8 of these APC 1500 24v lead acid units. All have been used from eBay such as this one - https://www.ebay.com/itm/apc-smart-ups-1500/164801989565?hash=item265ef6cbbd:g:docAAOSwqWdgbgvO and most of them are over 15yrs old now and still working. Newer APC models are OK also - I'm just not intimately familiar with them like I am for APC 1500 (7s) and 3000s (14s)

The "Smart" part of APC is an add-in card you can buy for about $130 that will give you internet access to what's happening inside / dump logs of power/battery levels etc. Here's a snap of the top level status screen:
1618498084206.png
 
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I have used APC UPS(s) to protect my servers for many years. When I started with 18650 - I discovered that 7s7p is nearly 100% compatible as a replacement for the Lead Acids. The voltage range for APCs is around 3.95v -> 3.0v (cutt-off) - so you loose a bit of power between 4.2v->3.95v as far as 'run-time' but 18650 7s7p can fit in a bit more power than the standard Lead Acids - so it matches close enough for me :)

UPS vs Battery->Inverter. A UPS *is* a battery + inverter but also has a built-in charger and auto-fail-over. So if you're comfortable with UPS(s) that operate with 24v nominal lead-acids, I think you'll find 7s 18650 a reasonable choice. You can set the 18650 battery outside the case so you can build as big a one as you want to achieve the run-time you're after.
I'm running 2 APC UPS's (SUA2200RM2U) using 14s32P Its a great match. I run from 54vdc to 44vdc or 3.86v to 3.14v/cell. Each APC runs different loads in the house. Now the weekend experiment. Fire up my first APC from mains then disconnect so it is running on battery. Plug the second APC into the first APC output where it will sync the AC sine wave. If my scope shows the two voltages in phase then I'm paralleling them together. My company throw APC UPS's out when the batteries go bad. Three paralleled together gets me the 6Kw inverter I need that I can't afford.
 
Agree that 12v (3s or 4s) is not a good match to 18650. It just doesn't work. However, 24v nominal is a good match.

I have 8 of these APC 1500 24v lead acid units. All have been used from eBay such as this one - https://www.ebay.com/itm/apc-smart-ups-1500/164801989565?hash=item265ef6cbbd:g:docAAOSwqWdgbgvO and most of them are over 15yrs old now and still working. Newer APC models are OK also - I'm just not intimately familiar with them like I am for APC 1500 (7s) and 3000s (14s)

The "Smart" part of APC is an add-in card you can buy for about $130 that will give you internet access to what's happening inside / dump logs of power/battery levels etc. Here's a snap of the top level status screen:
View attachment 24655
I might have to invest in that ethernet card, that's nice! I been getting all my information from my APC through the serial port.
 
i always found it strange how we go from AC (wall) to DC ups battery, then from DC (battery) to modified AC (ups output), then from modified AC to DC (desktop power supply)

is there a better way?

maybe a battery pack with regulated outputs? +12v, +5v and -5v that the computer could run directly off of...
then you would only need to charge the battery pack.
AC (wall) to DC (pack) to DC (computer)
Yes, use a DC-DC ATX power supply. Some are PicoPSU's and others are the HDPlex units. The Pico units are cheap, but lower wattage (400W supposedly). The HDPlex units are expensive but go up to like 800W or more.
 
I'm running 2 APC UPS's (SUA2200RM2U) using 14s32P Its a great match. I run from 54vdc to 44vdc or 3.86v to 3.14v/cell. Each APC runs different loads in the house. Now the weekend experiment. Fire up my first APC from mains then disconnect so it is running on battery. Plug the second APC into the first APC output where it will sync the AC sine wave. If my scope shows the two voltages in phase then I'm paralleling them together. My company throw APC UPS's out when the batteries go bad. Three paralleled together gets me the 6Kw inverter I need that I can't afford.
I have an older SUA2200Net unit I plan on putting into service (soon.tm). It's not the rack style unit, but sit on the floor type. The thing is a beast! I've gotten some caps, mosfets and diodes/resistors to upgrade the power rails, too. Got the unit for about $100 shipped. Can't complain with that considering its weight :p
 
i always found it strange how we go from AC (wall) to DC ups battery, then from DC (battery) to modified AC (ups output), then from modified AC to DC (desktop power supply)

is there a better way?
I absolutely agree with you! There's a lot of speaking about running devices directly on DC current avoiding double and triple conversions AC-DC DC-AC and then AC-DC again!

I started some very simple tests because I plan to make some sort of UPS-like devices for my home router and other stuff. In theory it's quite simple but to make a decent (and safe!) circuit requires quite a bit of knowledge (and I'm no guru... yet) :)

This simple circuit does actually implement a backup source, I tried it with a 12V DC source and a 3S 18650 battery and it's works perfectly:

DC Source Backup.jpg
You can disconnect at any time DC IN or DC Bat. and the device attached to the output runs with no problems (it's two 1N4007 diodes and a 1K 0.25W resistor). Obviously I want to make a safe circuit with a lithium battery charger, too. So this very basic PCB will have to include a good separation of sources in case a diode breaks. Maybe this year I'll come out with something more complex, if I do I'll share it here, sure.
 
Hey all, I am a newb here, and in the 18650 world, still learning. Already got some good info from this thread. So, thank you. And I have some questions. I have a APC Smart-UPS 1500 (SMT1500). I don't want to buy expensive lead Acid to replace, so going to build a 24V pack. Going to use a mix of Panasonic CGR18650CF or Sanyo UR18650A cells, and per your suggestion 7s7p. But my question is, these are not high discharge batteries, is that ok? Max discharge amp on these are 4.3. Also, I am not sure which BMS I should get, any suggestions:

2Pcs 3S 11.1V 12.6V 25A W/Balance 18650 Li ion Lithium Battery PCB Protection Board (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07JMY631D/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3G4BHAI7BWOKN&psc=1
or
KOOBOOK 10pcs 3A BMS Protection Board with Solder Belt for 1S 3.7V 18650 Li-ion Lithium Battery Cell Kit (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07W75BQWW/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A1HVCTHF5PHDZF&psc=1)
 
Hey all, I am a newb here, and in the 18650 world, still learning. Already got some good info from this thread. So, thank you. And I have some questions. I have a APC Smart-UPS 1500 (SMT1500). I don't want to buy expensive lead Acid to replace, so going to build a 24V pack. Going to use a mix of Panasonic CGR18650CF or Sanyo UR18650A cells, and per your suggestion 7s7p. But my question is, these are not high discharge batteries, is that ok? Max discharge amp on these are 4.3.
I also use 7s7p laptop (4.3a max discharge) in a couple of APC UPS 1500s but I don't have hi, sustained load. For example, my regular load on one of them is about 40% and I only use mine for ATS switch-overs - e.g. the about 2.7a/cell for a micro-second and this works because it's a micro-second voltage sag but doesn't sag below the minimum the UPS needs.

How do you plan to use the APC? - as an inverter (providing continuous power from the battery) or a UPS (as I do in the example above) or perhaps a couple of minute backup for grid outage or ?.

Continuous...
If you pull 1a/cell continuously on laptop level cells, it's 7a * 25v = 175w and you'll see a noticeable voltage drop. If you pull 3a/cell (21a * 25v = 525w) you'll see extreme voltage drop and the unit will cut-off relatively quickly due to low battery voltage. It's not dangerous, just won't work for you if the battery voltage drops below 21v in a few seconds and the UPS cuts-off.

In general, for laptop cells, I try to stay 0.5a/cell or less for continuous loads. This means for 7s7p; 0.5a * 7 = 3.5a * 24v = ~84w - e.g. 100w would be reasonable for continuous use.

If you're going for continuous use then hi-amp (10a or 20a continous) ebike cells would likely do well enough to avoid extreme voltage drops and work for you. You can also do 7s100p at 0.5a * 100 = 50a * 25v = 1250w as an external battery. The unit doesn't care if the battery is actually inside or outside.

Also, I am not sure which BMS I should get, any suggestions:

2Pcs 3S 11.1V 12.6V 25A W/Balance 18650 Li ion Lithium Battery PCB Protection Board (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07JMY631D/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3G4BHAI7BWOKN&psc=1
This is 3s. You need 7s (7 in series) BMS.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07JMY631D/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3G4BHAI7BWOKN&psc=1
or
KOOBOOK 10pcs 3A BMS Protection Board with Solder Belt for 1S 3.7V 18650 Li-ion Lithium Battery Cell Kit (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07W75BQWW/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A1HVCTHF5PHDZF&psc=1)
This is 1s. You need 7s like this 60a DALY - https://www.amazon.com/DALY-Li-ion-Programmable-Bluetooth-Module/dp/B09798L4WL/ref=sr_1_1
60a * 25v = 1500w max load before it cuts out.

Not pushing DALY - just a 7s @ 60a BMS would give you a theoretical max of 1500w and a practical max of 1200w kind of thing.
 
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