EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

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I have been approached to distribute new Yinglong LTO cells in Australia.

Apparently Yinlong were having some internal troubles last year, to continue trading they were dismantling pre-assambled battery packs and selling these cells cheaply, these are the cells most of us have been playing with.

Now they have overcome their issues and are back in full swing producing and supplying new cells.

I have been offered access to Yinlong's full range of new A grade LTO 2.3v cells: Cylindrical 66160 30Ah,35Ah,40Ah ,66260 55Ah and prismatic 30Ah and 33Ah.

We have finalised pricing for cylindrical cell and we are looking atAU$2.12/AH for cells in Australia.

Cells would be provided with an Australia tax invoice and warranty.

We can provide freight Australia wide.

I am looking to predominantly order 66160 40AH cells but open to requests.

If you are interested can you please indicate the cell type and quantity.


image_zzcaio.jpg


Edit - To clarify some details:
Pricing has been finalised short of a catastrophic exchange rate crash.

Our goal is to match, as best we can, Aliexpress pricing landed with GSTfor A-Grade Yinlongcells,yet provide local distribution and support in Australia. As the cells will be locally stocked and distributed there will be nocustoms and import fees or issues for buyers within Australia. To only additional expense will be local freight within Australia.

The per AH pricing seems to be adding confusion.
As long as the exchange rate does not change dramatically pricing is as follows, this is based on $2.12/AH:
66160 30AH AUD$63.60eachinc GST
66160 40AHAUD$84.80eachinc GST
66260 55AHAUD$116.60each inc GST

Size:
66160 and 66260 are big cell formats:
Both are66mm diameter
66160 are 160mm long+ 2 x 25mm terminal posts = 210mm and weigh ~1.15kg
66260 are 260mm long + 2 x 25mm terminal posts = 310mm and weigh ~1.9kg
 

Aussioffgrid

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Hi,

I'm looking at replacements for our lead acid battery bank at the moment. Trying to build a lithium (or similar) replacement pack of around 500AH with an uppervoltage limit of 60V and min voltage limitof 48V (range supplied by Selectronic as optimum for the inverter).

If the 40AH Yinlong LTO cells have a maximum voltage of 2.8V per cell and I was to build a battery bank assuming a full charge of 2.7V per cell to avoid hooking up a BMS I would need 286 cells.
That's 22 in series x 13 in parallel.

Would you please let me know:
Do these cells acquire a memory if not fully charged?
Is a BMS mandatory for a bank like I'm trying to build with these batteries?
What kind of price would you expect for purchasing 286 cells?
Is there somethingwrongwith my proposed setup that you might point out if it was to use your 40AHbatteries?


Thank you

Duncan

P.S I'm in Melbourne
 

DCkiwi

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I'm very interested BaronVonChickenPants.

Can you ship to NZ?

Alternatively, I can provide Melbourne shipping address.

PM me (or I you) for more details.

Thanks for sharing with us, here!
 
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Hi Duncan,
Your calculations are technically correct but not quite how the cells operate in the real world.

This reply just kept going so:
TL;DR; Short Answers
Do these cells acquire a memory if not fully charged?
No these cells do not suffer from a memory effect, they are rated for 30,000 cycles after which they should still have approx 80% of their rated capacity.
Is a BMS mandatory for a bank like I'm trying to build with these batteries?
A BMS is not mandatory but is recommended, other members have managed to avoid a BMS by proper initial balancing and only charging to 90%.
What kind of price would you expect for purchasing 286 cells?
Worst case we would be looking at $25,000 delivered to Melbourne, I'm hoping to improve on this once finalising details.
Is there something wrong with my proposed setup that you might point out if it was to use your 40AH batteries?
Read on McDuff.....



For starters the LTO cells are very different beasts to lead acid, you can discharge LTO cells all the way down to 0v and charge them back up to 2.8v at 10C (400 amps for a 40AH cell) in 6 minutes. That is assuming you have the means to provide 10C. They will do this for 30,000 cycles after which they are rated for 80%ish of there original capacity. They are also rated to perform at -40 degrees C, their current limits are reduced at these temperatures but in a pack like your are describing the de-rating would not be noticeable.

Because of this a 500AH lead acid pack does not equal a 500AH LTO pack, where a lead acid pack is only capable of at most 30% D.O.D before being damaged you only have 150AH usable, an LTO pack is 100% usable.

Do you really need 500AH, this about right for a medium to large sized family house operating off-grid.There is nothing wrong with this, I just want to make sure you are not over committing.


Now the the specific voltages, yes their cut off voltage is 2.8, but there is almost no usable energy stored above 2.6v, 2.8 is the guideline to use to configure a BMS. The real bulk of the energy is stored between 2.2 and 2.6v, once you get down to 2.1v they drop voltage FAST. The same is also true for above 2.7v, if your pack is unbalanced you can have a cell very quickly run up to and over3.0v.

You typicallywant to bulk charging around 2.7v per cell and float charging around 2.6v per cell, depending you chargers characteristics. For pack voltages this is bulk 59.4 and float 57.2.

Forum member completelycharged has been running slightly lower voltages on his pack and avoided the need for a BMS at the sacrifice of ~10% capacity and a bit more pro-active maintenance schedule.

We have been running a prototype pack with 22s 8p B grade 30AH cells since November and have both bulk and float set to 57.4v on our charge controllers, we have been using a chinese BMS which I have modified to bypass 500ma but it is struggling to keep up with our charge controllers which can at times be pushing upwards of 90A into B-grade cell packs, a rainy day project is to dismantle, manually top balance the cells and replace any with mismatched characteristics.

I am currently working on building the Stuart Pittway/Colin Hickey diyBMS and the possibility of a modified version able to bypass up to 5A as we will eventually have 16kw of solar and 500ma will definitely not cut it.



Pricing; The deciding factors for pricing will be order quantity, freight cost and exchange rate. We have been given a price window dependent on order size,if we get enough interested parties to get close to the M.O.Q I am happy to bulk out the order with additional stock. Freight we have calculated based on previous orders. We have used the current cash exchange rate offered by the broker for calculation which is subject to change.


Hi DCKiwi,
I see no reason we wouldn't be able to ship to NZ, if possible drop shipping direct to NZ would work out cheaper I shall have to investigate further for you.
 

Aussioffgrid

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Thanks for that. Our lead acid bank is 1380AH at 48V so 500AH of lithium was my estimate of an equivalent. I'm afraid the price blows me out of the water even though 30,000 cycles sounds amazing. Best of luck to you.
 
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Aussioffgrid said:
Thanks for that. Our lead acid bank is 1380AH at 48V so 500AH of lithium was my estimate of an equivalent. I'm afraid the price blows me out of the water even though 30,000 cycles sounds amazing. Best of luck to you.

It looks like you calculations were pretty close to the mark.

I completely understand your position with regard to pricing, for the same reason we want to ensure there is a market before committing to thousands ofcells.

Using the revised pricing in my OP edit your 286 cells would be approx$24,252.80 inc GST.

We believe the pricing of an assembled 12kwh LTO battery pack with BMSshould be comparable to a Fronius 12kwh LFP battery yet for more capable.
 

Jim Jr.

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BaronVonChickenPants said:
Aussioffgrid said:
Thanks for that. Our lead acid bank is 1380AH at 48V so 500AH of lithium was my estimate of an equivalent. I'm afraid the price blows me out of the water even though 30,000 cycles sounds amazing. Best of luck to you.

It looks like you calculations were pretty close to the mark.

I completely understand your position with regard to pricing, for the same reason we want to ensure there is a market before committing to thousands ofcells.

Using the revised pricing in my OP edit your 286 cells would be approx$31,174 inc GST.

We believe the pricing of an assembled 12kwh LTO battery pack with BMSshould be comparable to a Fronius 12kwh LFP battery yet for more capable.
My math is 286 40ah = 286 x 40 x 2.3 = 26312 watts
 
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JimJr. said:
My math is 286 40ah = 286 x 40 x 2.3 = 26312 watts

Sorry for the confusion.

Yes your math is correct, the system requested is much bigger than the 12kwh Fronius referenced,I wastrying to provide "like for like"comparison of a similar existing product,Aussioffgrid would require at least 2 Fronius units to achieve the desired capacity.
 

Jim Jr.

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[quote pid='47235' dateline='1552388618']


I am currently working on building the Stuart Pittway/Colin Hickey diyBMS and the possibility of a modified version able to bypass up to 5A as we will eventually have 16kw of solar and 500ma will definitely not cut it.



Hello
The active cell voltage ballancers really do work, Just an example, these will handle 6 amps
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/QNBBM-6S-Active-Battery-Equalizer-BMS-Balancer-for-18V-24V-LIFEPO4-LTO-Polymer-LMO-LI-NCM/32849144010.html


JimJr
[/quote]
 
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Messages
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JimJr. said:
[quote pid='47235' dateline='1552388618']
Hello
The active cell voltage ballancers really do work, Just an example, these will handle 6 amps


JimJr

[/quote]

I have come close to ordering these a few times. I noticed you posted about them a while ago and I am very impressed by the simplicity of the design. I would like to use the equalizingmethod for efficiency rather than top balancing which is kinda of okto bypass current while charging but after this just burning off additional voltage as heat.

The lack of monitoring and management is the only thing that puts me off of these.

Still testing and trailing options until I can tick all of the boxes.
 

Jim Jr.

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Messages
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BaronVonChickenPants said:
JimJr. said:
[quote pid='47235' dateline='1552388618']
Hello
The active cell voltage ballancers really do work, Just an example, these will handle 6 amps


JimJr

I have come close to ordering these a few times. I noticed you posted about them a while ago and I am very impressed by the simplicity of the design. I would like to use the equalizingmethod for efficiency rather than top balancing which is kinda of okto bypass current while charging but after this just burning off additional voltage as heat.

The lack of monitoring and management is the only thing that puts me off of these.

Still testing and trailing options until I can tick all of the boxes.
[/quote]

I have experimented with https://www.ebay.com/itm/Automatic-...hash=item2cb3e4130a:m:mHIp1r7EBES0QhzZWgt8boA
One for the high end and one for the low end and using the equalizer seems to work well , but the power usage doesn't work
well with the smaller than 10-20ah setups. They don't control , over temp , discharge amps , charge amps or shorts.
Using LTO's , I my opinion , I can put in the options that suit the application and not the BMS manufactures think you need :)
In high kw usage apps the inverter will protect the highs and lows and temps and a voltage equalizer covers the other of it.
Using a BMS is double insurance and a extra item to go bad.
LTO's are like a Willie's jeep run hard and put away wet and dirty and still run the next day . PS I am not a jeep fan,but the
ww2 ones did take a beating every day and still ran.

Ok , I'm done ranting now, I still use a flip phone :rolleyes:




JimJr.
 
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Good afternoon all,
Sorry for going dark on this one, I have been caught up between clarifying customs import rules and regulations, pricing negotiations, my day job and life in general.

We have an order in and all going to plan we expect to have stock in Australia, at worst, in 6 weeks.

We're just waiting on final freight and customs expenses but pricing will be better than originally expected, able to at least match AliExpress pricing as planned.

Our target market is predominantly Solar storage batteries but also camping and boating 12V batteries.

I will update the OP with final finally finalised pricing once we have all of the expenses in, I have decided to stop making updates to pricing based on quotes and estimates as they're too volatile.

Jordan.
 

PhilipW

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May 1, 2019
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@BaronVCP

Hi, bad timing. I personally imported 60 off 40AH cells this past month into Brisbane. I encountered some delay in shipment until Yinglong was able to supply, so I'm rather hoping I've got new cells, not recycled ones. Your pricing seems quite reasonable; I'd happily purchased from you if I'd spotted this sooner.

My application is a 12v marine house battery. Right now I'm going through all the electrical implications of the design, which are non-trivial. Keen to keep in the loop here and I'll update with any interesting info.

My planned configuration is 2 separate banks of 5P-6S.

Cheers
Philip
 
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Our initial shipment has left China and is bobbing along merrily towards Australia, or so I am told.

We are waiting on final customs costs for duties and taxes but quotes have the final retail pricing for 40AH 66160 cells at under AUD$70 inc GST, I will create a proper for sale post once everything is finalised.
 

Darrel

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May 18, 2019
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I am a greenhorn to this site but I would be interested in a few for marine use on a 36v trolling motor. I shot you through a email but it may have ended up in cyberspace. If they are up to the job I have a fair few mates that would likely go the same way. Cheers Darrel
 
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Good Morning all,
40AH LTO cell stock is now in hand.

I don't stalk the forums that frequently, best to contact me via my day job: www.coastalphones.com.au

Happy to talk wholesale pricing for anyone interested in larger quantities.

Regards,
Jordan.
 

piglet

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Jun 28, 2019
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Hello.

I have bought 105 pcs. of 66160 40Ah "NEW" B-grade cells from a well known Alibaba seller.
Cells arrived a few days ago.
When I opened the packages, I found 105 rewrapped cells, blue wrap without the normal "Yinlong" texts.
There was a white barcode label with serial number and capacity on the new wrap.
I took the wrap off.
Under the wrap I found a very lightly yellowish barcode label with the same numbers.

I also found clear knifemarks when somebody had cut off the original Yinlong wrap.

Almost every cell has small dents, and both the anode and cathode look used.

I have tested the IR, I have an YR1030+ meter, since the IR is very low, I used the ZR-setting.
The IR of the 6 cells I have tested, was between 0.35 - 0.29 milliohms, OK for me.
I have tested the capacity of just one cell, 41Ah from full charge to 1.5V, 0.3C.

So, the IR seems to be OK, same with the Ah. (only one cell tested for capacity).

The seller still claims that these are "Brand New", writes:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"The cells we sent to you are from Yinlong Hebei .

When they finish production and stock these cells ,all cells are uncovered ,and with a bar code on a yellow tape,I will show you some videos how they stock these cells .All of these cells are brand new .

Before shipping to us ,These cells will be tested rigorously by YINLONG QC team ,and also make blue shrink PVC on the battery....
....And as you have mentioned small dents AND a clear knifemark,it is normal,
when cells are production ,will have such of these situations .

Even you buy A grade cells ,will also face the problem ,it is just apperance ,don't affect the performance of battery ,
you can test the capacity."
------------------------------------------------------------------
I wrote to the seller:
"I just do not understand why they would first attach the yellow tape barcode label on the cell, then shrinkwrap the cell, then cut off the original shrinkwrap and leave knifemarks and small dents on EVERY cell, then shrinkwrap the cell again using the wrap without Yinlong logo and fasten the white barcode label on the shrinkwrap.
Do You understand why anybody would do that?"

A bit funny, I have not received an answer yet
I have a couple of new Yinlong 66160H cells with the original Yinlong shrinkwrap and the much darker yellow tape barcode under that. I took off the shrinkwrap, not with a knife but another method that does not leave knifemarks. No knifemarks or dents on those cells.

No marks of use on the anode or cathode either!

I think I shall contact Yinlong directly, give them all the info I have received and ask them if they can help.

So what to do, had to buy these by transfering money directly from my bankaccount, this Alibaba seller did not accept paypal, VISA, ordering via Alibaba or Alibabas paying method?

Regards: Piglet

PS: The cells were very well packed, 18pcs in a box with formed styrofoam inserts, 6 cells in a row. No chance of moving in the box, touching other cells or getting any dents on transport.
 

LExxon

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Aug 9, 2019
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Sounds great. I like the specs of these Yinlong LTO cells. Do you still have stock?
 
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