I am getting a bit fed up with victron

[1000kw-hunter]

Recently events made me to look into some other inverters.(failed transfer switch)
Victron was the main goal, but now i am not so sure anymore.
I would just like a simple dc/ac inverter 10kw and a simple 2kw charger.
According to victron it will cost me around 8000 euro,s and i must replace my Daly bmses and i must buy their batteries....
With a LOT of extra added stuff what is making this victron stuff so expensive....up to 12000 euro and i can keep my lifepo4 cells
Programming, cables and extra equipment ect

For 1500 euro i have the same 10kwh 20kwh piek inverter as before and for 50- euro i have a 48v charger.....
No programming, just attach cable and play/use my own collect power.
Extend the battery as i want to whatever i want.

With victron you must sell your excess power or shut it off, there charger cannot be programmed to charge to my needs(chineesum can do what i want)
Becouse this and that---->its open software you can do this and that?!?!?!? but can it charge to max 49.5v? answer was a 500 page book, with a last word no.

Any recommendations are welcome, but no victron, or tell me please what of victron i must buy and if it can be programmed for my wishes...island mode.
No selling exes power to the grid and charge when needed from the grid to my cells...(25kw a day if we did not have sun for 5 days.) just the minimum charge we need per day, until we have the sun back.

With best regards Igor

 

[OffGridInTheCity]

As you likely know, I went individual components instead of integrated vendor or AIO. The Midnite Classic (ETL) charge controllers have been excellent and I use the AUX1 relay to control dumb inverter on/off and Batrium for the batteries. There are really really cheap inverters such as WZLREB (e.g. Reliable) and I think of ETL AIMS and SGP as the next tier up. My AIMS and SGP 12,000w are ETL and were in the $4000 range and have been doing OK.

Then there's AIOs. I know MPP Solar isn't as popular these days but @hbpowerwall had this and they worked many years (9?) and I have an MPP 3048LV in my trailer that's held up well. These are less expensive and you can parallel them for 3-phase of 2-phase and to reach power levels you want. I think MPP Solar is available internationally as well.

 

[hbpowerwall]

I have 5x MPP solar inverters and 4 are still in service - also have 4 PCM60X MPPT charge controllers all still running full time.. BUT THE I really love my victron gear builds (not public builds)

 

[Taranakian]

Victron charger/inverters have built in relays you can configure to power a dump load based on battery SoC through the use of their "Assistants". You have to set up one for the high side SoC for when to switch on the dump load, and another one for the low side SoC to turn it back off again. I don't actually use the Assistants, myself, so can't be any help in configuring them.

Victron will give you some pretty granular control over your charging profile, I can't imagine you couldn't charge to 49.5V. It may not communicate with your Daly BMSes, but mine isn't communicating with my white-label LiFePO4 BMSes, or my generic AGMs, but to the Victron SmartShunts I bought for each of those battery banks. You definitely don't have to have Victron batteries to use Victron gear.

Honestly, my only complaint with Victron is that, as a Mac user, I have to run Windows on a virtual machine in order to use the VEConfig app to get the most out of my Multiplus-II. That said, if your experience has already been so coloured against them, it may be worth just skipping out on Victron. Life's too short not to love your gear.

 

[egelygaard]

I have a Victron setup - it's actually only the MultiPlus-II the rest are other brands e.g. Easun 6048 mppt and jk-bms lifepo4 which uses yambms to communicate with venus os. You can see my VMR in my signature

 

[1000kw-hunter]

Please bear with me, English is NOT my native language.
I do my best to understand your comments. please have some patience with me, this is for me big money and i need to make a choice.
We are losing money right now. (10 euro a day)

It is all about a inverter.

Oke, if i understand it right victron CAN do for me is charging my batts AND there is a surtain shut off: 49v that is programable (killing winter months)
For as my solar is not providing enough.
But if my solar is providing something that inverter WILL stop charging my batts?

Question number two:
Can i use Victron as a "stupid" inverter?
Without all the thing Victron would like to sell to me?
Can i use victron as a stupid charger?
Can i use Victron as a "stupid" inverter?

Victron MultiPlus-II 48/15000/200-100 230V | LithiumAccus.nl

De Victron MultiPlus-II 48/15000/200-100 230V is een krachtige omvormer in combinatie met uw thuisaccu. Bouw uw 3 fase omvormer met accu.

lithiumaccus.nl

Just provide my whole house out of my batts and charge my batts if we run out to a max.(pv first)
So we can use max our own solar. Without to much of victron stuff/electronics.
I would like to keep my Daly bmses (i just like those junk yard dogs) to control my batts, i dont need (want)communication between my inverter, grid or batts.

OR


Use a simple stupid Chineesium inverter and stupid Chineesium charger (will cut off at 49V.),
arger will make sure that when my batts are going lower than 49v it will charge to max 49V
So yes KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid.....(great rock band also btw, google them.)

But Victron costs a lot and is around 96% efficiency...Chineesium is around 85%?!?!?!?!?

What to do?
Sorry for my bad English, i hope you understand what i am trying to ask
With best regards Igor Kurgan

 

[1000kw-hunter]

btw dont let the price fool you, i am aware of this type of "construction" dont fall for it.

 

[OffGridInTheCity]

Every inverter has a low voltage cut-off - but it's not usually 'adjustable' and often at the rock bottom of the voltage range.

Since I'm 18650 (3.0v -> 4.2v) I use my Midnite Classic AUX relay + Midnite software to turn my dumb inverters on/off. This is part of how I control the overall voltage range /average DOD I want for my powerwall. At the high end, the max charge is set via the Midnites at 56v / 14 = 4.0v/pack. At the low end, 49.5v / 14 = 3.54v/pack, the inverter is turned off. Using max charge and inverter off by voltage let's me set any range I want.

Note: I set 53v = On but there's nothing magical about 53v - it's just higher than 49.5v to avoid rapid on/off cycles and lower than max charge setting.

LifePo4 is OK to run 100% DOD so you could do it by voltage as well since you don't need restricted DOD for long life as one does for 18650. However, LifePo4 equipment is often geared to SoC based on columbs (ah in/out) rather than voltage.

Bottom line - for off-grid, you need a mechanism to toggle inverter power on/off with respect to the battery bank. Software adjustable is nice - either built into the inverter software or AIO software or by an external unit with relays (as Midnite Classics offer). The mechanism needs battery voltage or SoC (shunt) as input to make the on/off decision.

Midnite Classic AUX1 software has several options besides voltage. For example, here's one of the SoC options

 

[egelygaard]

You can use it without any extra equipment, but you can use a raspberry pi with their software venus os, then you get more options.

 

[1000kw-hunter]

Bottom line - for off-grid, you need a mechanism to toggle inverter power on/off with respect to the battery bank.

I can get a charger that is going to feed my batt bank when the v is lower than 49.00 (lifepo4).
When the V is higher it will stop charging.
It will charge at just 2kw an hour, as soon as the sun is there the over voltage will make sure the charge stops charging.
24 hours with 2 kw an hour is more than we need (30kw a day) (until the moment i put on more pv panels)

So the inverter will be nonstop working.

You can use it without any extra equipment,

So no extra equipment is needed?
I can set my V "borders"?
Can the inverter charge my batts?
Or do i need a extra charger?

Thanks to all replays, very valuable! thanks.

I have 5x MPP solar inverters and 4 are still in service

Yes that was a inverter i was looking at in the first place, dont be surprised if i am going to choose that one for my build.
They have some great reviews. and i can order them for here in the Netherlands!

BUT HE I really love my Victron gear builds (not public builds)

Why not public builds???

LifePo4 is OK to run 100% DOD

Sorry, no for calendar life, no for energie units, no for cycle life.
90% is optimum no more and no less, min temp is for calendar life is 5c and max is 40c
From 2.800v to max 3.550v per cel dont go above or below for max calendar life or max cycle life

Every inverter has a low voltage cut-off

This is where my bmses are stepping in, i use Daly i think similar like yours, just set a min and max voltage per cell and pack, and they will cutt off.
Daly is meaner than a junkyard dog...not one hundred of a volt higher or lower.

Your system is a inspiration to me!!too bad it costs to much over here, or else i would copy it a long time ago.

Victron charger/inverters have built in relays you can configure to power a dump load based on battery SoC

What do you mean by "dumb load"? your Household?

Assistants, myself, so can't be any help in configuring them.

And that is something i dont like to use also.
I must be "stupid" charging and "stupid" "invertering"
That is all i want, with preset voltage limits.

All thanks in advance for your answers, and thanks for all the answers that were giving!
Looking forward to the next answers.

With best regards Igor K,

 

[Taranakian]

You can set your own low voltage cut off with Victron.

Here are some images from their VEConfig app. I haven't included all of them, but here's most of the important ones - just so you can start to get an understanding of what you can and cannot change.

https://imgur.com/pLgjE1L

https://imgur.com/bdtCLyW

https://imgur.com/BOpAzS6

https://imgur.com/KI64nmh

https://imgur.com/8ITnwtl

https://imgur.com/U4FhVFq

https://imgur.com/ILrYpn1

You have to download a special app to get to those settings - and go through a setup process that's not entirely straightforward. Without doing that it is just a dumb inverter.

It sounds like you're also asking if, with the Victron, you can prioritise using your PV for your normal house consumption over charging your batteries when you're lacking excess? If that's the case - and maybe I'm wrong here - I thought that was always the case always? I mean, I guess not technically since I have a SmartShunt between my battery and any connections going into/out of it, but still. Maybe I misunderstood the question?

 

[1000kw-hunter]

You can set your own low voltage cut off with Victron.

This is up to my bmses, they set my "borders"

over charging your batteries

On this is where Daly and my mppt's are stepping in, they just cut of, nothing more nothing less.
No over charge or over discharge, the Daly bms will just cutt of the whole pack, they only allow a charge or a discharge when the "borders" are reached.
I like this level of safety very much.

Without doing that it is just a dumb inverter.

And that is just what i am looking for and a dumb charger, to run continually off my batts.

you can prioritise using your PV for your

I would like to prioritise my batts. first pv charge than grid charge.
The main grid fuse cannot handle anymore what we ask.
Before end of 2025 it will be helpless....water boiler for shower bath and ev....

But i found out i must use:

https://stroomwinkel.nl/victron-interface-mk3-usb-ve-bus-to-usb-4281.html

So not so dumb after all?
I can live with that if i can get what i whant.

you can prioritise using your PV for your normal house consumption over charging your batteries

Yes first use pv/batts and when batts are to low (winter months) i must charge from the grid.
Up to a minimum of one usage a day, so when solar kicks in that will be the first use.

Thank you very much for trying to understand my bad English. and help me with what i want.
And your questions so i can clarify.

With lifepo4 i would not go lower then -10C regarding charging. (preferable -0c for longer calander life)
(from your provided images)
The "virtual" switch if i may ask, is that the switch for transfusing/switching between grid and system?
If yes, i would like to never switch to grid but charge my batts from the grid.
Is this possible? (without extra charger).

Thank you again for helping me and tring to understand my bad English.

With best regards Igor K

 

[OffGridInTheCity]

Most would suggest that you do not depend on you're BMS for daily (or routine) hi/low cut-off. The BMS is more for emergency, backstop, last chance type thing.

You should have operational equipment/parameters to do the hi/low besides the BMS. @Taranakian gave Victron software settings. I showed Midnite settings.

Charge controllers as used to set the 'hi' (max charge) by voltage. Anywhere between 3.45v * 16 = 55.2v and 3.65v * 16 = 58.4v are reasonable numbers for 48v / 16s LifePo4.

Since LifePo4 can discharged all the way down (100% DOD) to 2.8v * 16 = 44.8v (as an example) and you may get find an inverter with low shut-off that is a bit higher and the inverter will protect you from dropping into the BMS. Other inverters are settable with toggle switches. And some inverters (Victron above) will let you set the 'low' as @Taranakian was showing for Victron. And then I was showing how to use an outside voltage monitor to turn off an inverter by it's on/off switch.

@will Prowse did some recent youtubes that LifePo4 is OK to do 100% DOD that you might find....

View: https://youtu.be/1G8WxY_jcUM?si=ynr-B6LoeFu8J4d_

 

[Taranakian]

Your English is fine - these are just complex issues. They're hard to discuss with people who natively speak the same language unless both have a high level of knowledge about them, and get more complicated when one is communicating in a second language.

It sounds like what you want to do is not terribly different than what I currently do.

Right now I've got two drop in LiFePO4 12.8V batteries connected to my Victron Multiplus-II that power most of my everything. I also have hardwired in my old inverter connected to my old AGMs for the odd time when I have a load that's greater than what my Multiplus-II is rated for (3000VA). For all intents and purposes, the old inverter wired into the Multiplus-II as an AC-In is acting like the grid.

I have it set up so that, in normal conditions the Victron ignores all other power sources except for my LiFePO4s so my fridge doesn't end up running off of my AGMs, for instance.

I also have set a couple of exceptions. One exception is in case my batteries drop to 15% SoC. If they do, the Victron stops ignoring the AC-Input from my old inverter ("the grid"), and starts charging at a predefined amperage (more or less). This exception ends when either my batteries reach 12.5V or 85% (I know, both are random - truth is I watch my system like a hawk and it's easy to do because of all the data Victron offers, so I usually intervene before either of those options can be fulfilled).

The other exception is when I'm running a big load. The dishwasher and the benchtop oven are the two big ones for us. When I have a load that is greater than 2001W for more than 0 seconds the Multiplus-II stops ignoring the AC-In from my old inverter ("the grid") and pulls a predefined number of amps from that inverter to combine with the power it's already pulling from my LiFePO4s to meet the needs of that load. That exception shuts off when the load drops below 1999W.

There's probably a more elegant way to do this, but in your case a quick and dirty way would that should work is to set your Victron to ignore AC-Input with an exception so the grid is ignored unless your batteries get to, say, 15% SoC with a charging cutoff of 16% SoC. That way you'll only sip power from the grid until your PV kicks in enough to take over.

 

[Korishan]

Most would suggest that you do not depend on you're BMS for daily (or routine) hi/low cut-off. The BMS is more for emergency, backstop, last chance type thing.

You should have operational equipment/parameters to do the hi/low besides the BMS. @Taranakian gave Victron software settings. I showed Midnite settings.

This exactly.
The BMS is basically your fail safe. It should only handle the hard cut off and the event that something goes wrong that is beyond the inverter or charger. Or it detects when there is a cell in balance and it triggers a cut off, which the inverter would be able to detect anyways.
This is also why it's a good idea to have a BMS that is able to communicate with the inverter and charger so that it can tell them to slow down instead of just doing the hard cut. This allows them to be able to switch to grid if this is an option for your particular inverter.

 

[1000kw-hunter]

I had contact with several Victron dealers...
It is all Robermenrt based were i live, so a big NO NO
Not one could give me the answer/data/outcome that I WOULD LIKE
Because thanks to our roberment they dont want us tp be even 50% offgrid, all must be grid connected....and controlled for tax.....
(batts grid connected they are working on it, dont fool your self!!!you will lose money)
Yeah right...not on my back or work.....my money i worked for, i payed my tax....my system....my own savings!!!!
this goes further for my country, but it is MY own money that i my self invested....

I contacted the seller of my xyz inverter that i ***** up, yes i did it f**** it up, never stated otherwise .... I did it!!!!but the rubber boot from China is bringing me 2 inverters...one 10kw and one 5 kw...
O yes i also order i charging ligepo4 thing for the winter months...why?
We need at our piek more than our house grid connection can provide, but wait this is not all...
If we want to have a stronger house/grid fuse we would go for the next one: 3x35A fuses...3200 euro a year just to be connected....
Now we pay 1400 euro a year for 1x25a....
We can live from it...now??!?!?! with the new water boiler(shower/bath?) and the new heating system also a 5 kw when the temp diff is more than 25C????
It will pop out, this connection is to light for what we are going to do, so a heavier connection is needed...
NO
I want a lighter connection...1x10A....that will cost us 40 euro a year and the same kwh price...
Thats why i would like a charger for my lifepo4 batts...


For my country---> who is crazy? me or the roberment.......(for now) so no Victron for the clever Dutch! so just island mode/pure offgrid
I did my calculations.....wacht out for them...

Mpp solar does not give a propper replay on their website and there are to many fakes of mpp solar., sorry for the original manufactories.
So i did not order, sorry, i like there product!

So this was a small update of my endeavors, i hope for some replay or good willing advice.
Some great stuff some people ordered or have on this forum is NOT allowed in my country because previous stated reasons....
Many thanks in advance

With best regards Igor

 

[1000kw-hunter]

Gentlemen, thank you very much for your answers.
Especially @OffGridInTheCity and @Korishan and @Taranakian.
I "blew up" the two inverters myself....
They could max handle 55v.
The bmses were set to max 53.6 volts.....
What happend?
the mppt's were still loading to a max of 58v(victron's)
So the bmses are in cut off mode, so the mppt's give a short burst of 65!V so there goes inverter two.
Inverter one that was in system 2.0 that was max on the mppt's 56v and the bms on 53.6v
so i could live pretty long, but v was to much....
In system 3.0 i bought 3 new mppt's to add, witch i did not check on max cut off V/max charge...just followed the preprogrammed lifepo4 settings

So that was the end of inverter number one, inverters max was 55V, the mppt's give a max of a lot more, not to forget when the bms is shutting of there will be a spike in the voltige.......--> into the inverter....i measured 65V.
So ordered another inverter......when the sun came in when the batts were full......ZAPPP all dark.

So to get this straight before i blow up a other (number three) inverter:
Max v inverter is 55v.
So the max charging V for the mppt's would be 53.6V
and max for bmses to cut off would be 54.5.

Do i have this correct?

Many thank gents, without this i would never know what cause these events...
But regarding the numbers? i have them correct this time?

Many thanks in advance, best Igor

 

[Taranakian]

If you blew up Victrons at 65V, I reckon they ought to be repaired/replaced under warranty. The upper end of the voltage range for the Quattro (thus, presumably the EasySolar and the Multiplus II) is 66V, where the upper end of the Phoenix is 68V. Perhaps your spike was much higher than 65V for just long enough to fry the internals, but not long enough to register on whatever you're using to measure your voltage?

I suspect this is what both @OffGridInTheCity and @Korishan were warning about when they were saying you shouldn't use your BMS as the cut off, and that it should be managed by your charging gear, with BMS as one last, final point of failure.

I won't pretend to know much about LiFePO4 charging - again ours are 12V drop-ins, so pretty straight-forward. But OGITC mentioned above:

Anywhere between 3.45v * 16 = 55.2v and 3.65v * 16 = 58.4v are reasonable numbers for 48v / 16s LifePo4.

 

[Korishan]

Man, that sux!! I blew up an MPPT controller because I didn't realize it was a few volts lower than the other one I was missing with. So when I connected the solar it popped the capacitor and blew out an IC (not sure which IC it was blown)

Max v inverter is 55v.
So the max charging V for the mppt's would be 53.6V
and max for bmses to cut off would be 54.5.

Do i have this correct?

Yeah, sounds about right. Crazy that the top voltage is 55V. Even with lead acid that's a little short (14.5 * 4 = 58V)
At 55V, that'd be 13.75V. Not exactly using the most of the energy that can be stored in those.

Something you could try doing is adding a Diode to the leads to the Inverter, so there's a little bit of a voltage drop. Not ideal, but could possibly help out. Not sure if the Schottky diodes used for Solar would be enough of a drop.

 

[Korishan]

I suspect this is what both @OffGridInTheCity and @Korishan were warning about when they were saying you shouldn't use your BMS as the cut off, and that it should be managed by your charging gear, with BMS as one last, final point of failure.

I've actually noticed this with my Inverter/Charger. When the BMS disconnects due to OverVoltage condition on a cell, I can see the voltage on the inverter go from like 55.x Volts and spike up to around 57.8V for a few seconds. That's because these have capacitors in the unit and the other electronics doesn't stop immediately to keep from pushing the current through the lines fast enough.
So that could be what has caused the system failure. I'm guessing it takes a few milliseconds for the MPPT controller to react and bring the current/voltage down