lifepo4 is getting cheap

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1000kw-hunter

1000kw-hunter

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Mar 2, 2019
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Hold your horses, there is a catch:
16x75 dollar is ~1200 dollar for 15!kwh....
Brand Envision 70% soc 6000 cycles
Live span 16 years

Brand eve:
16x100 is ~1600 dollar for 15kwh
80% soc 8000 cycles.....
Life span 21 years

Witch one would you want to buy and why and why the other one not?
I am asking this because i am at the junction.
I already have a pretty decent? system

With best regards Igor
 
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Both seem like great deals. I have done rough calculations for my 18650 packs(mostly 7s100p and some "AmmoBats" 7s32p) and aim for under $200/kwh including all the consumables. Usually the cells themselves are about 30-40% of that cost and for the larger LiFePo4 cells there would hopefully be less other components so makes sense that slightly more goes towards the cells. And much less work and more stable chemistry. I will admit it is becoming increasingly harder to justify the repurposing of 18650 which is so labor intensive and inconsistent on quality of results.
 
cak said:
I will admit it is becoming increasingly harder to justify the repurposing of 18650 which is so labor intensive
Click to expand...
The laber intensive is the testing IF you want to have a safe powerwall.
To add also the life span of li ion 18650.
Regarding cycle life if we want to use them it can be stretch to 1500 cycles up to 2500 but this is when bought new, with no use of the first and last 20% soc.
In the last 500 or so cycles they will be less than 40%soh.
For self life li ion 18650 after we set them free could be 10 years, usable probably 5 years.
Some vids of hbpowerwall made this very clear, I also believe he had/have one of the oldest powerwalls.

i only want to spend time with li ion cells if i got them for nothing.

cak said:
Usually the cells themselves are about 30-40% of that cost and for the larger LiFePo4 cells there would hopefully be less other components
Click to expand...
But the cells will do about 30-40% of those lifepo4.
Regarding EU lifespan and cycle life.
But waaaaaay cheaper to start up.
With lifepo sodium and nimh you just put the IR and capacity in order, slam them together, a pack fuse and a bms.....
With 18650's you need more busbars fuses and more testing time, soldering time, even new bought after a year or two or after a 4-500 cycles you need to test them.

With lifepo4 and nimh when its done its done

I stick to eve btw, in 20 years i am 70, eve will be at 80%soh.
so after our retirement we will still have them in good working order, good for a other 20 years, without daly use of 2 ev's
Envision will not be in good working order before our retirement let alone to give a other 20 years.
Basically, they cost the same in the long run, if i was 30, max 40 year i would buy them.
You get what you pay for.
 
Hi igor,

the lifepo4 cells have become much cheaper.
I bought 16 cells from Eve at Nkon.nl in April this year.
and then it was €160 each cell.
If you look now, they cost less than €100 each cell
 
Buy envision from nkon.......70 euro.
Calculate that to kwh, 18650 cells arent even no worthy anymore to buy.
18650 arent even worth the trouble anymore unless you are getting them for free.
50 cents a cell max if tested with SOH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

But for my personal choise i still go with EVE, do your calculation.
EVE can do 8000 cycles on 80%DOD, envision can do 6000 cycles on 70%DOD
If you are below 35 and want iland mode by envision, and keep an eye out for new chemistries.
after 40, stick to eve and be sure for the rest of your life....

But you calculate per cell....stop this and calculate per kwh x cycles....
You will see EVE a grade is cheaper than EVE b grade or envision.
You will find out pretty quick that buying li ion is pretty expensive.
But as per usual (economical speaking) if you dont have the money it is a great way to start up.
what you save put it in your system, it will go faster and faster, and this is what most people forget.
18650 is a great way to start, or run in the big dollars/euro's right away.

alculate per kwh!!!!x cycle life and inbed you age.
 
One year, every day 30 min to get 10kwh per year....... if testing properly 20 cells a day.
I am still getting my 18650 cells for free, but 15kwh at 1100 euro lifepo4?
That will last 30 years(lifepo4) and li ion will last? 5 years 80% or even 10 years...what about self life of the li ion?!?!?


With best regards Igor
 
Yes, LFP go really cheap these days. Right now they have a bulk order running on the 'akkudoktor'-Forum (Germany). You get a 280 Ah Grade A cell for under 70 Euros! We are going to build a PV on our roof - but it will probably take 6+ months to get finished (still looking for solar engineer and roofer for renovation first. Do you think prices will still decrease a bit in 6 months or would you rather buy now - getting the bulk order discount (around 8...10% i guess). The cells are not really getting any better when keeping them in shelf for 6 months - so i would rather tend to wait and hope for even lower prices. Also other cell technologies like Na+ion are coming up rapidly. What do you think?
 
Na-ion will raise first a bit.
It is not uncommon for something new to have a "cheap" introduction price.

Regarding lifepo4 chem, if they will sit on the self for one year, they only lose one year of self-life, so when new their self-life is unused in optimum storage conditions would be around 40 to 50 years.

If lifepo4 is on your shelf for 6 months i would not lose any sleep over it.
Only thing you have to do is use them.

I bought some lifepo4 cells and life was getting in the way, they were 8 months in optimum storage.
2.9-3.0v and 18c.
One full cycle was enough.

Mind you those cells are already fabric rejected and probably manufactured 1 year ago.
Those cells are rejected maybe! for a slightly odd ir, not a 100% accurate charge or discharge or overall capacity.
Mabe some cosmetic: a damaged wrap or some scratches.

Furthermore, i think also that the 280ah are going to be obsolete, cous the 310 generation is coming free.
Maybe they want to get rid of their old stock (280) incl the machines and they build new format (310) machines.

Machines are pretty expensive to maintain and for sodium ion the machine need to be altered a bit.
So it is cheaper to invest in a new machine.
Even the demand for (car) manufactures is not for lifepo4 anymore.

Last year i was saving money to by 15kwh again for 2250 euro, within 6 months i could buy 30kwh.
So i am going to buy in two months from now 45 or 60 kwh extra.
Depending on the tax refund, or in two weeks 30kwh.

I expect that they will get cheaper, but you WILL lose money regarding your elektra bill.

I am still testing li ion 18650, i get them for free incl ni mh, but if i have to pay....i will quit and will sell bits of my tester that are dedicated for 18650 cells.

Aldo it is a very bitter and harsh to swallow cookie regarding the money i have spent on the previous lifepo, still i saved myself some money, and the next 35 years or so.
Maybe longer.
They think that after 6000 cycles the remaining capacity is still 80%, i cannot do even 150 cycles a year due to my arrays.
So after 40 years they still will be at 80% SOH.
What is the kwh price then?
What kind of chemistries we have then?
I think then they also succeed with nuclear fusion, and maybe small enough for every household to buy one.

Yes i am a dreamer, but you asked about my thoughts.
So explanation is giving for my answer:
Buy as soon you have the money!

With best regards Igor
 
paddy72 said:
still looking for solar engineer
Click to expand...
Do it yourself....
Can you connect the red wire to the red wire?
Can you place the wires in a metal gutter?
Can you fix a fuse where needed?
Can you screw a wire into a mppt?
Can you calculate?

But i dont know the conditions of your roof, nor the hight.
You only need three cables inside your home.
Earth minus and positive.

Get yourself a extra grounding pin, driving deep into the earth where it is wet in the summer.
Positives go into a fuse box with DIRECT CURRENT switch fuses......
Make sure that you can disconnect your mppt at all times and make sure that your inverter can be disconnect at all times...
incl your batteries.

If you want to buy a prechoise switch just like your inverter, overrate them.

I think enough homework for now:cool::cool::cool:
 
@100kwh-hunter : agree and see all your points. But i won't loose any money on electricity bills as the PV is not ready or installed at all. We are still discussing the options and looking for craftsman that could do it.

As of DIY: yes, i could do it probably my own, despite fixing the very big moduls on the roof. I already installed some smaller ones just for experience and test case - just use them for DC applications as charging batteries.
You probably don't know the rules and regulations here in Germany!? If you want to connect a big PV to your mains you need to care about a lot of VDE norms and other regulations. If you have an older house (ours is from 1973) you have to update all your electricity systems due to new regulations. I read about some cases where ppl had to spent 15.000 ....20k Euros just to update their electric installations! Some power suppliers even want you to have the newest model of electric meter cabinet, with all devices mandatory - if you ever need them or not! It so much depends on your local network operator and how they feel on that day....
You need to find an electrician who will connect the PV/inverter to your meter cabinet and he has to release the new PV devices to the network operator and subscribe. And of course all of them want your best - your money :(

The only thing you can do without electrician is installing a small BKW (Balkonkraftwerk) - but guess what - its also regulated and at the mercy of arbitrariness of network provider! :mad: Yes - some do just what they want and install what they feel - but it can end very expensive - not only in case of any accidents.
 
I rebuilt my entire house (dated from ~1870) so yes i am aware of some stupid regulations our roberment (tax collector) is giving us.
Our laws are not so much different, i am your neighbor from the Netherlands.
There is so much to do right now on the market of pv you will not believe.

People here:
  1. have to pay tax if the have pv on their roof.
  2. have to pay for the excess energy they relais on the grid.
  3. They will receive no longer payment for a extra kwh released on the grid.
  4. you are making something, so you are a manufacturer, so pay income tax.
  5. They want you to have their "clever" meter so they decide when you can deliver or take from the grid.
  6. batteries are stated/regulated in a law that is called (freely translated) law civilian explosive use....(wecg)
  7. I cannot give my extra kwh to my neighboors....(law is currently in the making)
  8. I think i missed some points, but they want money, simple.
But some loopholes are in our laws.
I could reject the "clever" meter.
I am allowed to do work uncertified on dc installations up to a max of 92v
i am allowed to have a "island" mode system.
Sinds i bought every panel and every bit of my system myself, they cannot tax me (for now!, from France i hear different signals)
Article 42 in our ground law states that my batteries are legal if i connected them before the law changed.
I was never stupid enough to ask for roberment money to fund my pv/ess system.

All that i harvest is for my own use.... we work during the day and use in the evening....
You sell at 35 cent a kwh but buy back at 45 cent a kwh.... ex all the things the tax collector wants.
And people were laughing out loud to my face when i started with ESS, people are pretty silent right now btw...
In two years from now you have to pay to use your own harvest.....exept island mode without funds asked

This year i would like to connect a 15 extra panels, google maps knows everything.
So i will build the new "powerhouse" according to our building regulations incl fire department (own contractor for 35 years now)
I still can install all the elektra BUT the new rules are stating that a pv installation must be checkt by a certified electrician (scope 8 and scope 10).
So i will go to 150v open circuit for thinner cables and higher yield.

I think at those points our laws dont differ so much.
Get island mode and keep it for yourself dont sell or balance your yield, obey your building regulations and installation laws.
Get your approvements/certificates for your insurance, store them in google drive or something.

Sit back and enjoy 40 years of free electricity.
So yes before all this you must pull a LKW uphil with handbrakes on....
--->LKW for non Germans--->Last Kraft Wagen aka big rig aka truck, semi.

The golden tip for our countries is a switch that is keeping apart the main and our island system.
But keep it on manual return to your batteries.

I hope this could help you a bit, like others on this forum helpt me, from a nitwit to do all properly.

With best regards Igor
 
Hi Igor,

thanks for the details of your project. It seems laws and regulations on PV are quite a bit different in the Netherlands. They seem to be different in every country - even in europe - and it gets worse worldwide. The biggest problem i see regulations, esp. those of VDE (electricity regulations commitee) tend to change every year. And if your house and electric wiring is older (ours is 'only' 50 years) you have to keep up with regulations when you change your status and putting PV on the roof means you are producer of electricity and have to commit to all new regulations. But there is a great area of 'grey zone' where you are at the mercy of arbitrariness of some powernet provider in Germany and the electricians.

Even if you want to build an 'island-PV' you have to cut the mains connection from your energy provider. I guess an island is only possible for an offsite area like a separate garden etc. but when you have a house with an electrical connection to mains from your power provider you are not allowed to have an island-PV - its always concidered grid-tied. Imho if i just use the DC from PV and dont use any inverter i probably could declare it as an island (not 100% sure).
But i am also not aware of any bigger punishments here if you don't declare a PV at all or you declare it wrong in one or more ways - so the best would probably be just to do it! Germany has got so much burocratic and overregulated that all economic activities on a smaller scale are stifled - you can't breathe any more!

We will see if we find mercy at our network provider and a willing electrician who would officially declare our PV plant as 'compliant' :cool:
 
Jeez Igor planning for 30-40 years hence?????????????
I can only mourn and wail at how the whole fabric of our society in UK has gone down the toilet over the last 5 years. Everything around me seems to be falling apart, then I look on the world news and see the Climate is kicking off with increasingly destructive weather everywhere, unspeakably savage wars going on, a fearsome US Presidential election in hand with utterly useless either very old or very dishonest candidates. Our own GE is faced with absurd political farce with both sides offering an even more dire outcome. My disposable income rapidly decreasing, I cant get to see a GP doctor. Hospitals AnE grossly overloaded

AND THATS ALL HAPPENED IN THE LAST 5 YEARS
 
Huuu - this sounds really bad!
But things aren't really much better here in Germany! Our stupid government (red-green) wastes our money for their ideology - if it works in practice or not. We are financing stupid economic and ecologic projects that will never run in practice - like running the whole steel and chemical industrie on hydrogen. Oncle Habeck flies around the world (just was in Algeria) begging for hydrogen! Imho it will never, never, never run our industry! But Oncle Habeck is dreaming...
I also have my own opinion about financing the war in Ukraine - but we are not allowed to talk openly about what we think here. We have to have the official opinion of the government! :oops: At least he US play america first, Germany plays 'Germany last'. I wonder how long this will last...
In a few years all industry in Germany has shut down and moved somewhere else, where workers are cheap and regulations are low. In Germany everything becomes more and more burocratic and overregulated. They even make new laws and rules to rule the regulation instead of cutting regulations down! We have to spend enormous time on compliance trainings just to show commitment. This is pure hypocracy imho.
 
paddy72 said:
I also have my own opinion about financing the war in Ukraine - but we are not allowed to talk openly about what we think here. We have to have the official opinion of the government! :oops:
Click to expand...
Case closed......if putin wins Ukraine war we the EU are fucked big time.....please realise that.....i will answer this one and other questions with fact tomorrow, just had my company party, my personnel is happy, and i feel the al;cohol.... You realy think he will stop after ukraina.....you must be stupuid....where are the biggest coal reserve and gas and grain next to ukrain.....Poland.......if you have ukraine you have eu by the balls.......enter poland...then the eu will kniel for u...
I will fight...dont make a mistake about that one, i will fight for my king (first my wife and dogs!!!)but not for my country......or the eu...and i am trained...(and maintianing the traingns).

Lets get back to topic please...

With best regards Igor from the Netherlands with a house in poland.........but i will answer all quyistions if in a seprate topic.......
Just start one in general and i will find you: for a friendly!!!!debate or discussion....what ever you want...IF FRIENDLY!!!!!!IF FRIENDLY!!!!!
 
This is probably not the right place to get into political details but i am sure we here in Germany and you too in U.K. or poland get a comletely disturbed picture of what is really going on. For everybody that sees clearly and knows a bit of history, there was an agreement (H-D. Genscher, former miniter of foreign affairs in Germany was involved) that the Nato is not going to expand into the east - that was before the DDR came back to Germany. Now the Nato is entering into Ukraine, just before the door of moscow! You think Putin would allow Nato to move into 'russians territory'. I put this into '' with a meaning, knowing the Ukraine is not russian but its brotherhood! Everybody who denies that, simply doesn't know!
I don't think Putin would move any further - but of course - i don't know. I don't talk to him on a daily basis ;)
If you live in Poland i can understand that ppl are a bit more worried. But Poland is already part of Nato, right? Putin wouldn't be so stupid to raise a worldwide war, knowing that nobody would survive. If we only had taken reality into account and had discussed the topic with respect (also to Putin) this would easily have been avoided - i am sure! If only Nato would give a clear statement, that Ukraine could never be part of Nato - everything would be finished at once.
Of course, this is just my personal opinion - everybody can disagree if he/she likes. I don't want to take this topic in a wild political debate!

P.S.
Just to make things clear: i am not a friend of Putin or his regime, he is no friend of humanity to say it very mildly. But i am also not a friend of Selensky either, he is not any better than Putin! Ukraine is still a highly corrupt regime, with a dictator at the top, throwing his ppl into a war that cannot be won! I am sure, the ppl of Ukraine would rather be russian than lose their lifes at the front! But they are forced to fight - most of them don't want to! Many of them are even russian or have russian family! Its the US that uses the war to weaken russia. And it was the US that sabotaged Northstream - Biden said it clearly and Trump even boasts about it.
 
paddy72 said:
In a few years all industry in Germany has shut down and moved somewhere else, where workers are cheap and regulations are low. In Germany everything becomes more and more burocratic and overregulated. They even make new laws and rules to rule the regulation instead of cutting regulations down! We have to spend enormous time on compliance trainings just to show commitment. This is pure hypocracy imho.
Click to expand...
WOW Paddy, sounds like you guys have caught the anti job pandemic we go 50 years ago, back then we decimated manufacturing jobs and mostly killed off our job skills

- We hardly make anything anymore. Young people are entering the job market with no prospect of learning trades as we used to. I feel very sorry for our utterly disenfranchised
youth, they have been severely cheated and they dont realise it.
Notice the hypocracy of the administrator class. Let the politicos bang their drums and enforce the creation of Nanny state government - every new regulation creates a whole pyramid of bureaucrats. The more of these bodies an administrator has under him, the more he gets paid.
 
100kwh-hunter said:
.if putin wins Ukraine war we the EU are fucked big time.
Click to expand...
Agreed Igor 10^6. But guys look back to the time of Yanunovich (Putin glove puppet) 2014 fled the country after a Popular uprising. Prior to that, EU bureaucrats had been meddling secretly in Ukraine's internal affairs promoting EU membership (not an initiative formally approved by the EU btw). THIS WOKE UP THE SLEEPING BEAR). Its been hell ever since and the EU mandarins are to blame.
Z was put in place as a glove puppet and kept there by a cadre of very corrupt oligarchs (who are still floating around pulling strings btw). Thats why H put a block on further financing of the war effort because so much was being stolen. Clearly the US has also woken up to the cold facts that this war cannot be won and the stalemate is the de facto basis for an inevitable armistice. Im preaching treason here and will probably disappear into a prison barge in Plymouth (formerly migrant 5star hotel).
Guns without bullets - its a shabby trick but we are facing a colossal uncertain future with the US as an ally. Their interests are being actively menaced in the far east and also the pact Russo/Chinese to develop the arctic sea passage will drastically alter the world economic dynamics within 10 years. We may see the unthinkable US imploding as it loses its grip through political polarising paralysis.

The EU has become a massive compost heap, and a rapidly failing experiment. Look at it - its not a Country, has no leader officially and as some office junior pointed out it has no diplomatic status. The EU is like herding cats.

So carry on planning for the life expectancy of Lifepo battery banks - reminds me how the orchestra carried on playing will the Titanic was sinking.
 
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