OffGridInTheCity Build

[kje]

That's the plan


We visited the 3 affected neighbors that border the back corner of our property and apologized and offered to help what we could that's not in conflict with insurance process. In my mind, things should be manageable but it's not up to me. Very different responses.

State Farm (home insurance) apparently doesn't respond over the weekend - national web portal only, filed the initial claim. Local agent didn't return a message. Fire dept concluded their investigation yesterday but advised against cleanup till State Farm decides if they want to do their own investigation.

It's a helpless feeling. And in the background, I feel like I've let myself and the idea of off-grid DIY down a bit. Tried to be safe with generator but didn't go far enough or succeed in the end.

I feel sorry for you. I perceive you as very careful and conscientious who takes all kind of precautions. I hope you are all well and I hope the circumstances resolve themselves quickly.

 

[OffGridInTheCity]

Thanks for the kind words folks!

A neighbor about 100-150ft away took a short MP4 of flames in progress - all I'm getting is sound here in the post but it looks like you can download it to play if interested.

Here's a still from the clip above.

 

[DG98]

So sorry this happened to you, OGITC. You're certainly taking it better than most. I concur with the comments already made about your conscientiousness when it comes to safety, etc.

And on that note, your neighbors need to suck it up and take it at least as well as you have. Sometimes bad stuff happens. Maybe it's someone's fault, or maybe it's not. They weren't harmed. That's the end of the story for everyone but a Karen.

Cheers, John

 

[bbbbrass]

Man, so sorry this happened and glad no one injured! Video played for me without downloading. You basically had a huge blowtorch on your solar array, I'm amazed as much is left as there is. In my mind house fires/propane accidents aren't that uncommon or related to DIY. If anything I think you are showing how much safer battery and electric is that combustion and pressurized/flammable energy!

 

[OffGridInTheCity]

Man, so sorry this happened and glad no one injured! Video played for me without downloading. You basically had a huge blowtorch on your solar array, I'm amazed as much is left as there is. In my mind house fires/propane accidents aren't that uncommon or related to DIY.

I have a different perspective on propane now. I found a few comments that basically said - it's "good news" when propane bottles vent and blowtorch as apposed to exploding. Yikes! With good news like that, who needs bad news.

I knew that propane would expand under heat - which is why I left extra room (didn't overfill). I knew that propane can vent under pressure - stored outdoors. I knew that bottles should be sheltered to keep temps down to 100F or lower - stored in the shade of my panels. So check, check, check, and check.

And I'm sure I read that propane should not be stored near flammable material... I didn't think of the outside of a shed as flammable but that was a mistake. I now understand that its proximity to flame that can cause heat, venting, and then blow-torch. A county worker said they can act as rockets on occasion as well - so they physically secure their bottles.

As part of rebuilding plans, I'm thinking something like this for propane storage to address my poor thinking.

If anything I think you are showing how much safer battery and electric is that combustion and pressurized/flammable energy!

Agree completely. Panels + electrical to code (conduit, metal boxes, breakers, UL/ETL equipment, ....) has very low relative risk.

 

[grundholm]

I think this community have to appreciate how you share everything, lots of photos and always well documented!!
Thank you!

A county worker said they can act as rockets on occasion as well - so they physically secure their bottles.

It is also important that they stay upright so the vapes are in the top of the bottle.

I remember from my childhood, we had big factory nearby where the roof caught fire. Some workers had left propane bottles on the roof. The next days, the investigators found bottles 200-300 feet away.

 

[italianuser]

As part of rebuilding plans

you're were not injured and nobody got hurt, that's the main thing. All the rest can be fixed. We all take risks and try to manage them at our best.
Keep strong

 

[Wolf]

Wow don't know what to say. I am glad you and any others where not hurt.
Keep the faith, sometimes if you want to make an omelet you got to break a few eggs.
Not much of a condolence however hindsight is always 20/20.
Thanks for sharing this eye opening experience and I wish you the best.
Having gone through a small house fire way in the past, nothing compared to this,
just a small shed with paint cans, I do know how disruptive this can be.
Besides all the I told you so's.................

Best

Wolf

 

[OffGridInTheCity]

Update ~2 weeks post fire. The raw trauma of waking up to massive flames is fading a bit thank goodness.

Discovered more neighbor damage than originally thought. In addition to the gazebo, the pool liner/cover was melted! The IAAI Professional Fire investigation has finished and I got the go ahead to start cleanup last Tue. Investigator/Insurance has decided it's not arson or fraud but not sure what they will determine as far as liability. Most likely cause - DIY generator exhaust thimble (thru shed wall) was not adequate and allowed charring over the last year+ culminating in -> smoldering fire in the wall.

Some details.....
- US Home Insurance will pay neighbor damages depending on my liability and to what degree. If I'm not liable, then neighbors must get their own Home Insurance to pay damages.

- Shop vacuumed the back yard/grass to get glass shards up - little pieces of solar panel wafer materials are *everywhere* and a few larger glass pieces.

- First up is fence rebuild to restore privacy and security for the property + cleanup bit by bit is underway.

- I didn't understand till now how fire soot/smell infiltrates *everything* in the fire area. Even things untouched physically in the shed reek of the smell. For example, some storage tubs still give off an odor after detailed cleanup with soap and water.

 

[Korishan]

I didn't understand till now how fire soot/smell infiltrates *everything* in the fire area. Even things untouched physically in the shed reek of the smell. For example, some storage tubs still give off an odor after detailed cleanup with soap and water.

Yup. And it may literally take years for the smell to fully be removed, depending on how well the material "absorbed" the smoke into its tiny pores.

If I'm not liable, then neighbors must get their own Home Insurance to pay damages.

Keep on eye on this one, as it may still be possible for the neighbors insurance company to sue you. Hopefully this won't happen, but just be prepared for it if it happens. As a safe guard, you might want to already be looking at a lawyer just in case things go south. Again, hopefully nothing comes of it, though.

 

[OffGridInTheCity]

Keep on eye on this one, as it may still be possible for the neighbors insurance company to sue you. Hopefully this won't happen, but just be prepared for it if it happens. As a safe guard, you might want to already be looking at a lawyer just in case things go south. Again, hopefully nothing comes of it, though.

Yes sir, been thinking the same thing - especially these days. However, State Farm has a good reputation and I discovered I have 300K liability which is supposed to cover things like this. Fortunately there were no injuries to people or pets and no one's home caught on fire - it's 'just' property damage that can be repaired and that should help keep temperatures lower. Have done reach-outs to the neighbors to ask how they're doing - at least they aren't yelling or glaring at me.

State Farm is not answering questions except that my losses (as apposed to neighbors) are still covered to policy limits. They did say they would share with me what they determine (e.g. liability for example) once they make their decision on how to approach the neighbor claims.

Google is completely silent / useless on all this.

Will update as things happen.

 

[Korishan]

Is State Farm the insurance of both properties?? If so, then you probably won't get sued, tbh. Not profitable to sue yourself, ya know??

 

[OffGridInTheCity]

Is State Farm the insurance of both properties?? If so, then you probably won't get sued, tbh. Not profitable to sue yourself, ya know??

No such luck!

 

[Korishan]

No such luck!

Well, considering the damage was small, hopefully there won't be any issues. Best wishes to you sir on the outcomes.

 

[Taranakian]

Hey mate,

Just read through this tread.

A - Any update on what State Farm is going to cover? Fingers crossed they cover "all of the things".

B - Thanks heaps for the detailed thread. I've collected over 100x 10S6P scooter battery packs at this point and have been floundering about whether to leave them in their current forms, flash the BMSs and build a massive 36V bank or to tear them down and build a proper 48V powerwall out of them. The info and photos you've provided throughout this thread make the latter feel a lot less daunting.

 

[OffGridInTheCity]

Hey mate,

Just read through this tread.

A - Any update on what State Farm is going to cover? Fingers crossed they cover "all of the things".

State Farm has completed our part of the claim and issued checks for damage and shed contents. Can't say enough good things about State Farm as far as the process and covering our damages. As for the neighbors... the shared fences are rebuilt, one is selling his house (which should conclude things), and the other with the pool damage hasn't made any repairs yet.

B - Thanks heaps for the detailed thread. I've collected over 100x 10S6P scooter battery packs at this point and have been floundering about whether to leave them in their current forms, flash the BMSs and build a massive 36V bank or to tear them down and build a proper 48V powerwall out of them. The info and photos you've provided throughout this thread make the latter feel a lot less daunting.

100 x 60 = 6000 cells = ~60kwh worth - which would make a very nice powerwall.

Look forward to hearing about you're decisions and progress - and of course some pics would be great.

Thanks for the kind words!

 

[Taranakian]

I can't imagine how much of a relief that must be to have that sorted (and maybe how much of a relief it is that certain neighbours have decided to sell - we're quite rural but have a house over the road from us, when they sold 6 months ago everything in life just got better).

I'll start a build thread at some point. I just need to order bits and pieces. I've got enough time to build something substantial before the worst of our winter sets in and we go weeks with super short, rainy days, but only if I commit right now and get testers and such on the way from China. Considering our current use is 3kWh/day, I reckon I've got enough batteries on hand to make sure I never have to start the generator again. And, if I don't have that capacity yet, I've got a seemingly unending supply at approximately $.15/NZD/cell ($0.09USD/cell). That usage will go up, obviously, as I get more storage capacity and it makes sense to switch our instant hot water from LPG to electric and we get around to getting the induction cooktop installed, etc.

 

[OffGridInTheCity]

Update Gossip: Cleanup continues (sigh!) + new panels ordered

Got the PV array dismantled. Next up is to remove the metal shed roof and then tackle the awful water tank mess. Have the mess go from higher (PV and Shed Roof) to lower (Water Tanks). Glass and panel 'bits' are everywhere. Frankly, its getting to me a bit to have to dismantle / cleanup rather than build... but its coming, bit by bit.

Beware neighbors - I asked the neighbor if he'd think about lowering or offset from fence his pool gazebo (in pic above) as it shades the bottom row of panels in winter and he let loose about my panels being a 'industrial complex eye sore' and could I please move them!. As a reminder, here's what they look like from his deck and he can't even see them from his yard.... because I kept the tilt only 17deg to lesson the impact. Sigh! Not sure if it's actually about panels or being annoyed due to fire or just unfriendly (or all 3).

After a fair amount of consideration, I ordered 26 x 345w panels from - https://www.ebay.com/str/surplussolarproducts I'm guessing these are 'middle of the road' but they say 25yr warranty.

These are 'new' and includes shipping so it's $3200 / 26 = $123 per panel.

The *FIRE* has me re-thinking things. I was over-paneled into 3 x Midnite 150s because over 1/2 the year it never reaches the max but at least 3 months of the year they max and the wiring can hit / stay at 55C / 131F for several hours a day.

In my new design, I'm going to lighten the amps and go with 4 x Midnites and shoot for 35C max wiring temps with the idea of lessoning fire risk.

It's interesting but I can't easily fit just any panel size to either the array or the existing system. My array is 33.3ft long = 12x horizontal in old panels but only 11x in 345w panels. Also it's build around 10ft Unistrut cross members with ~8inch cantilever. The 345w's are 68.8in so 2 vertical is 137.85in - 120 (10ft) = 18inches / 2 = 9 inch cantilever on each end. The 400w, 500w, 550w panels create a 20inch+ cantilever on each end which is more than seems prudent.

Also, these 345w's are not crazy out of line Voc wise with the 57 x 285w panels I already have - so I could parallel them in a pinch and get reasonable results.

All in all, the array and existing charge controller system and panel availability add quite a few constraints to choices when it get's right down to it.

My old setup was 14.5kw and this will get me to 15.1kw - a bit of a boost.

 

[Taranakian]

Thanks for the update OGITC, and sorry about your neighbours (and the cleanup). I'll never understand the distaste for solar. We're entirely off-grid and while I appreciate what our solar panels offer us, they're innocuous enough that I have no need to form an opinion about their aesthetic. They're just, you know, there. That said, I think there's a quiet but persistent anti-independent-energy-generation movement there in parts of the US that doesn't exist here...? I could be making that last part up.

Could you move that array to the opposite fence? Seems like if there was ever a time when that was viable it would be now.

I'm real jealous of the secondhand solar market available in the US. You can find some used panels here, but largely from individuals who got swindled by the initial installers and are trying to recoup some of their money so they're frequently more expensive than deals I can find new (at still greater than $1/W). If you can find a reasonable price, it's on small quantities - 1's and 2's generally. Them's the breaks though when you live in a country at the bottom of the world with a population of 5 million.

While we've got enough to do us (except for a couple of months when it's grey and rainy, but I've got a turbine going up for that), if I could get panels at $.50/W you better believe I'd expand our array substantially and get an electric car - especially now that the current government has added road user charges to EVs and PHEVs which has depressed that segment of the market.

 

[OffGridInTheCity]

Thanks for the update OGITC, and sorry about your neighbours (and the cleanup). I'll never understand the distaste for solar. We're entirely off-grid and while I appreciate what our solar panels offer us, they're innocuous enough that I have no need to form an opinion about their aesthetic. They're just, you know, there. That said, I think there's a quiet but persistent anti-independent-energy-generation movement there in parts of the US that doesn't exist here...? I could be making that last part up.

Interesting ideas. I know that some people are just repelled by the look of panels as my wife is one of them (no kidding). Fortunately she still thinks highly of me personally!

Could you move that array to the opposite fence? Seems like if there was ever a time when that was viable it would be now.

Not even remotely possible. For one (out many reasons), there's 200 bags of concrete holding down the existing structure and have no desire to repeat all that