Other inverter options?

Status
Not open for further replies.
400bird said:
I still haven't heard anything special about the GTIL2

What makes the GTIL2 special is that the charge controller supplies the same volts from the pv as what the battery volts are. This enables the GTIL2 to use the pv power from charge controller first and if pv power isnt enough to fully supply the homes loads then battery power is added to the loads with the pv power. Thats the same way offgrid inverters work with a charge controller. So not anything really special yet. Heres where it becomes special. The GTIL2 is a grid tie inverter that does the same thing that an offgrid inverter does. This is starting to get special because most grid tie inverters cannot use batteries like an offgrid inverter would. Most grid tie inverters are string inverters and could possibly use a battery bank as backup power only.
Ofcourse the grid tie inverter cannot operate when grid power isnt working like an offgrid inverter would, But most peoples grids are working all of the time.

Heres what makes the GTIL2 really special. besides using pv and battery like an offgrid inverter does. GTIL2 can also use the grids power to supply loads at the same time it is using pv and battery (an offgrid inverter cannot do that) , but the GTIL2 only uses the grids power if the it cannot produce enough to supply the load because the inverter is smaller than the amount of the loads, or uses grid power because battery dropped to the adjustable battery cutoff voltage. The gtil2 does not shutdown then reboot after a certain time or switch to a different mode or need a transfer switch etc. If pv power isnt enough then battery is added to help and if thats still not enough the grid just takes care of the rest. And on top of all that all of the surges are supplied by the grid as opposed to an offgrid inverter that needs to be able to handle those surges which shortens and offgrid inverters life compared to an inverter that doesnt have to deal with surges.

Im starting to think (more I look at it) those outbacks will only allow battery to be used instead of pv and then pv (if its available at that time) just charges the battery when the inverter is using the battery. Im going to keep looking into it. The GTIL2 supplies pv first to a load even when the battery is being used.
Click to expand...
 
I just realized that I miss understood your battery voltage issues. I don't know what to do about your non standard battery voltage. My apologies, I thought you were looking for lower voltages.

For the rest of it, I'm out. I give up. What you describe is normal. Email Outback or Victron.
 
400bird said:
I just realized that I miss understood your battery voltage issues. I don't know what to do about your non standard battery voltage. My apologies, I thought you were looking for lower voltages.

For the rest of it, I'm out. I give up. What you describe is normal. Email Outback or Victron.
Click to expand...

The outback skybox operating battery voltage stopping at 60v is low for any inverter. Many inverters can operate with the battery voltage I have. Most inverters can use up to 66v some as high as 69v.
The problem is finding a grid tie inverter that operates using a lower voltage battery than most GTI string inverters would use. Most GTI inverters use a high voltage battery (over 120v) similar to their string array voltage, thats if they can use pv and battery power at the same time that the loads can use grid power. The GTIL2 is not a string inverter. It operates at a lower voltage because its not a string GTI. This allows it to use a low voltage (for a grid tie inverter) 45-90v battery.

If what I describe is normal then please mention 1 other GTI that is only a GTI (not high voltage string GTI) , and can also use pv then battery then also let loads use grid all the time.
 
Cheap4-life said:
The outback skybox operating battery voltage stopping at 60v is low for any inverter. Many inverters can operate with the battery voltage I have. Most inverters can use up to 66v some as high as 69v.
The problem is finding a grid tie inverter that operates using a lower voltage battery than most GTI string inverters would use. Most GTI inverters use a high voltage battery (over 120v) similar to their string array voltage, thats if they can use pv and battery power at the same time that the loads can use grid power. The GTIL2 is not a string inverter. It operates at a lower voltage because its not a string GTI. This allows it to use a low voltage (for a grid tie inverter) 45-90v battery.

If what I describe is normal then please mention 1 other GTI that is only a GTI (not high voltage string GTI) , and can also use pv then battery then also let loads use grid all the time.
Click to expand...

Don't have an answer but just clarifying what you're looking for so maybe someone else can answer.

Most commercial rooftop grid-tie inverters like the sunnyboys, etc. are made for larger arrays. They also are spec'd for higher operating voltages, usually 250V-600V. But they also have a sweet spot that also coincide with the rating of the arrays. There's multiple advantages, lower gauge wiring, high efficiency, high output, etc. They also are made to output all energy to the grid. Their downside is when the grid power goes down, it also goes down. Thus the term grid-tied.

The GTIL2 is also a grid-tie inverter. It just so happens that it's made with the capability to limit output so in the case that you do not want to export excess energy (such as if you're not authorized to export or if you are not allowed to export power). These units are not high voltage because they are typically smaller units (1kw or 2kw at most), thus the arrays are small to begin with such low power. 3-4 panels are typical installs so the voltages are low even in series. That's why the operating voltage is only 45-90V. It just so happens that it falls in the realm of the voltages of batteries we use. Since it's DC it doesn't matter if the input power is coming from a solar panel or battery, DC current is DC current. But in the end it's just a grid-tie inverter with the ability to limit export current.

Now hybrid inverters are different. They are typically made as a off-grid and grid-tie inverter. So if the power was to go out, it will not be able to export to the grid. However, it is still capable to run a separate subpanel where all your critical loads would tend to be. These also come in higher power output such as 3kw or more. However, you are not interested in the off-grid part of it. The question is, can these hybrid inverters limit the export current during grid-tie? I know some have grid-zero features but that's just making sure it doesn't export energy from the subpanel. You're looking for something that can export energy but limit it to the entire house panel usage. This term is load shaving, and you are looking to charge the batteries with excess solar energy then load shave at night when you are using grid power. GTIL2 is more of a toy, and you're looking for a larger version of it.
 
Yes most hybrids have 0-meter on the grid-side and does not export.
For example on mine i add an SDM630 meter over modbus and it does that.
 
not2bme said:
Cheap4-life said:
The outback skybox operating battery voltage stopping at 60v is low for any inverter. Many inverters can operate with the battery voltage I have. Most inverters can use up to 66v some as high as 69v.
The problem is finding a grid tie inverter that operates using a lower voltage battery than most GTI string inverters would use. Most GTI inverters use a high voltage battery (over 120v) similar to their string array voltage, thats if they can use pv and battery power at the same time that the loads can use grid power. The GTIL2 is not a string inverter. It operates at a lower voltage because its not a string GTI. This allows it to use a low voltage (for a grid tie inverter) 45-90v battery.

If what I describe is normal then please mention 1 other GTI that is only a GTI (not high voltage string GTI) , and can also use pv then battery then also let loads use grid all the time.
Click to expand...

Don't have an answer but just clarifying what you're looking for so maybe someone else can answer.

Most commercial rooftop grid-tie inverters like the sunnyboys, etc. are made for larger arrays. They also are spec'd for higher operating voltages, usually 250V-600V. But they also have a sweet spot that also coincide with the rating of the arrays. There's multiple advantages, lower gauge wiring, high efficiency, high output, etc. They also are made to output all energy to the grid. Their downside is when the grid power goes down, it also goes down. Thus the term grid-tied.

The GTIL2 is also a grid-tie inverter. It just so happens that it's made with the capability to limit output so in the case that you do not want to export excess energy (such as if you're not authorized to export or if you are not allowed to export power). These units are not high voltage because they are typically smaller units (1kw or 2kw at most), thus the arrays are small to begin with such low power. 3-4 panels are typical installs so the voltages are low even in series. That's why the operating voltage is only 45-90V. It just so happens that it falls in the realm of the voltages of batteries we use. Since it's DC it doesn't matter if the input power is coming from a solar panel or battery, DC current is DC current. But in the end it's just a grid-tie inverter with the ability to limit export current.

Now hybrid inverters are different. They are typically made as a off-grid and grid-tie inverter. So if the power was to go out, it will not be able to export to the grid. However, it is still capable to run a separate subpanel where all your critical loads would tend to be. These also come in higher power output such as 3kw or more. However, you are not interested in the off-grid part of it. The question is, can these hybrid inverters limit the export current during grid-tie? I know some have grid-zero features but that's just making sure it doesn't export energy from the subpanel. You're looking for something that can export energy but limit it to the entire house panel usage. This term is load shaving, and you are looking to charge the batteries with excess solar energy then load shave at night when you are using grid power. GTIL2 is more of a toy, and you're looking for a larger version of it.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the help clarifying. Some of those commercial string inverters can use a battery to help supply the load along with the available pv power and allow loads to use grid power at the same time. This is great because the excess pv power not used thru the day can be stored in a battery to be used later instead of being sold to the grid. String inverter (most GTI) are made with the intent to feed into the grid to get payd for it not saved into the battery. They started coming out with the ability to limit export because some people have limits to the amount that can be fed into the grid. This also ended up allowing the excess pv power not used by loads to be saved in a battery so the user could use the power themselves. This enables a user to fully supply their loads 24/7 if they have enough battery capacity and enough excess solar not used by loads thru the day to supply all their loads thru the night. And not send any power to the grid to get payd peanuts when they could be using the saved power and saving more money.
As for the size of the arrays connected to the GTIL2. I use 12 305w panels that feed into a charge controller. I could use many more panels. This is because the GTIL2 can use a battery. And the GTIL2 had settings to limit the amps it uses for its dc source. Also the inverters can be stacked to have as many as u want. I seen a user using 6 2kw inverters at once.
If using a hybrid inverter, You said to load shave at night when grid power is used. With the GTIL2 grid power can be used at any time if needed and in combination (at the same time) with the excess power not used thru the day thats saved in the battery. Load shaving happens constantly without switching to offgrid or grid tie. This is because the GTIL2 can use a battery (like an offgrid inverter) and its a grid tie inverter that limits its output to not feed into the grid (like an offgrid inverter wont feed into the grid. So essentially GTIL2 has all the features of an offgrid inverter except it cant operate when the grids down. I just keep a 4Kw offgrid inverter for those emergencies which Ive never had to use in 3 years.
Reference to the GTIL2 being a toy.. ok its cheap to buy. But its dropped my electric bill to near zero for years (unless its summer) and I have 2 teenage girls that live with me and my wife. Hell of a toy if u ask me :) I could get more battery to fully supply night time aircon and have zero electric bill year round
 
You dont have to shift anything with hybrid.
Hybrid is what you look for.

There is nooothing special about the gtil.
Sorry.
 
daromer said:
You dont have to shift anything with hybrid.
Hybrid is what you look for.

There is nooothing special about the gtil.
Sorry.
Click to expand...
There isnt any other GTI that can operate on a low voltage battery. (That Ive found) The GTI can stay running 24/7 if a user has enough battery for there loads. This in itself makes the GTIL2 special.
 
Same as any hybrid does for 48v.

As i said i have been running mine like that for many years now

There is nothing special about it
 
In a way both of you are right.

The one thing I think that GTIL2 stands out is that it requires no special devices to make it not export. It is supplied with a built in CT sensor. I don't know of any hybrids there that can do this without some tinkering required. Having a SD630 requires that the incoming mains rewired into this device first then to the main breaker box. Does the MPP hybrid automatically connect via modbus to the SD630 and limit the output automatically? Is there a CT sensor version that doesn't require a major rewiring?

The reason for my interest is that I also have a hybrid, a Schneider XW+ that I haven't installed yet but when I do, I gain the ability to export as well and want to have a grid-zero scenario but I cannot rewire anything from the pole to the main breaker.
 
daromer said:
Same as any hybrid does for 48v.

As i said i have been running mine like that for many years now

There is nothing special about it
Click to expand...
My statement was that there isnt any GTI (grid tie inverter) that can:)

But originally yes I was asking for ANY inverters that I could use to replace the GTIL2
You are saying the MPI can replace the GTIL2.
When you are using the hybrid inverter. When the inverter is supplying pv power directly to the loads.
What happens when the amount of those loads are more than the amount of available pv power?
Does the inverter then use battery to try and fully supply the load?
What happens if the available pv and battery power isnt enough to fully supply the amount of the loads?
At that point the GTIL2 continues supplying the amount of pv first and second battery power available, up to the inverters max possible output and simply allows the grid to supply the rest of the power the loads need.
With the MPI, Im assuming at that point (when available pv, battery, and inverter max output isnt enough) that it shuts off allowing the grid to feed all of the power the loads are using till the amount of loads drop below the inverters max output, then MPI resumes using pv and battery.
Am I wrong?
Does the MPI continue to supply all it can from pv and battery when loads are over the MPI max output?
Does it continue to supply the pv first and second battery power to loads if theres not enough pv and battery power available to fully supply the load?

Apparently I cant trust the zero export function of the MPI, because it still allowed power into the grid as you said. This is understandable because most inverters simply try to keep the export at zero and a little power fed into the grid is ok for most GTI users that have a solar meter installed from electric company. There only appears to be very few inverters that completely allow the inverters to load shave properly so the electric company doesnt see any negative power
 
Example of what makes the GTIL2 different than a standard grid tie inverter.
I called the seller of the inverter in the pic.

image_pjrwub.jpg

image_wrkzhw.jpg

I asked if the inverter could use battery power to help supply the homes loads if pv panels couldnt supply enough to fully supply those loads. He said yes but only when grid power isnt present The inverter in the pic can only use a really high voltage Tesla battery. It can only use that battery if the grid power isnt present, like a backup.

When pv panels cant fully supply the load the GTIL2 uses the batteries while the grid is still connected. This enables the remaining amount of load (if inverter isnt fully supplying the loads with pv and battery) to be supplied by the grid. With the GTI inverter in the pic the loads can only use pv power (not battery) when grid is still connected. This is the same with all grid tie inverters that I have found so far except the GTIL2.

The grid tie inverter in the pic does supply up to 7kw of power directly from pv when grid isnt present which is kinda cool, but that power is only available during the day when pv panels can give it
 
image_akauiq.jpg

image_evnqhq.jpg

This inverter does the same as I describe the GTIL2 can do. Theres 3 differences tho. Good difference is inverter has adjustable voltage ranges from 55-220v which is awesome! Any battery volts 43-120v can be used to help the pv power if needed at anytime and the grid can still be used by loads at that time to fully supply the rest of the load if needed.
Bad difference is that the limiter is separate (not internal like the GTIL2) but it does still use ct clamps. I think it still allows the grid to supply a small amount of power always to prevent any power from going into the grid.
Another bad difference is that they only come in a 1.2kw model. The GTIL2 has a 1kw and 2kw model.

This is an option for me, but this inverter is still a cheapo not well known brand. Honestly Im wanting to spend a grand or two on a well know GTI that can do the things a GTIL2 can do. Still looking into outback. So far their grid tie inverters seem like they got the best chance


daromer, I think this is the hybrid inverter you are referring to

image_qrpfxt.jpg

The battery cannot be used while the loads can still use grid power in any of those modes. The grid tie + backup mode comes close to being able to do that. In that mode only pv and the grid is used for loads. The battery can be charged (by excess pv power) for backup Incase of a grid outage, but the battery can not be used to supply a load if the pv cant fully supply the load.

This means that if it was sunny and the battery is fully charged but then it gets cloudy and array can only produce 1000w but loads are 2500w this hybrid inverter will not allow the battery to help fulfill the load demand. Battery just sits there full (as a backup in case the grid stops supplying) letting the grid supply the rest of the load that the pv cant fully supply. The hybrid can switch to offgrid mode to use the full battery but then the hybrid has to be able to supply all of the load because the grid cant be used to help fulfill the load demand.

The GTIL2 allows that battery to help when clouds roll in, so power doesnt have to be used by the grid. If the loads still need more power from the grid because the inverter is at its max output or battery bank is to small or because inverter amp settings are set so the inverter only draws x amount of amps from battery the GTIL2 allows that power still needed to come from the grid to finish off supplying all of the load.

I hope the above info clarifies why hybrid inverter cannot replace - do all that the GTIL2 can do. Yes theres things a hybrid inverter can do that the GTIL2 cannot do, like supply power when the grids down. But I explained I have an offgrid inverter to use if needed. Ac charging. I dont need that either.

What used to be a (relatively) simple subject has been turned into a maze of options because of electrical engineers and marketeers. This is why Im having such a difficult time figuring out which inverter will replace the GTIL2
 
A hybrid will use battery to support grid-tie. If a hybrid is only capable of producing 2kw, then it will output up to 2kw back to the grid. If your consumption is 2kw, then it nets up zero. If your consumption is 3kw, then 2kw will be supplied from the hybrid, while the remaining 1kw will come from the grid. If your consumption is 1kw, then the hybrid will provide 1kw. This is the peak shaving that I'm talking about.

https://www.se.com/us/en/faqs/FA229629/

The question I have is how is this set up to detect this current? In a GTIL2 it has a CT clamp sensor to detect the current going through the mains. And this is set up as part of the GTIL2 feature.
 
Yes that hybrid can still be used at exact time.
IM USING IT LIKE THAT.

I bought it because i want to use
1. Solar
2. Battery
3. ONLY grid if above is not enough

Look at the image again. The first option is what you talk about all the time. The system is Bidirectional. Do you undestand what that is?
That means the power can go in ANY direction. It can go to or from battery. It can go to or from Grid. And same with solar at ANY time.

Example: Right NOW its cloudy here. I get 1.5kw of solar... I use 2.5.... Guess where the rest of the energy is coming from? Yeah from my battery bank.




And i have been using it like that for several years.

On MPP they reffer to it as "SBU"

Where it priotizes the first. You can either do this on the load-port or the grid-side. Why do you think they added Battery to grid-tie inverters??
Please read what we have said. And understand that the GTIL is nothing special in that sense. The only special is that they cut out many functions and only use that.

For the MPI it can either do it on the Load or grid port. On the grid port you can
1. Use the SDM630 and it just works.
2. Use external system. I use this with a sensing unit that tells the inverter to 0-grid. I choose this because i have multiple units.
 
On the MPI modell its called Grid syncronization. And can even be set manually here:


image_ttnowx.jpg

Those settings are what correlates exactly to what you look at. This is based from

image_oekmrn.jpg



Edit: I have even built custom software that talks to the MPP to do this if you dont like the built in function. Its handled in solar-sis that you can download


How much more do you need to understand that the function exist? That it have existed long before the GTIL came? ;)
 
not2bme said:
A hybrid will use battery to support grid-tie. If a hybrid is only capable of producing 2kw, then it will output up to 2kw back to the grid. If your consumption is 2kw, then it nets up zero. If your consumption is 3kw, then 2kw will be supplied from the hybrid, while the remaining 1kw will come from the grid. If your consumption is 1kw, then the hybrid will provide 1kw. This is the peak shaving that I'm talking about.

https://www.se.com/us/en/faqs/FA229629/

The question I have is how is this set up to detect this current? In a GTIL2 it has a CT clamp sensor to detect the current going through the mains. And this is set up as part of the GTIL2 feature.
Click to expand...

image_xcchpo.jpg

While using load shave function, will the inverter use the available amount of pv panel power first. if pv panels can only produce 200w for a 1000w total load, is the battery only used for the remaining 800w thats needed to be supplied. Its seeming like it does exactly that.

Do all hybrid inverters have this function? Or do some of them switch to offgrid (cant use grid power) when using batteries?

This means the Schneider hybrid inverter you are referring to indeed does work in the same way I describe that the GTIL2 can do.
I really appreciate your patience with me and your time to help me understand.

I must say that I still think the GTIL2 is different than most GTI. Besides the limiting with CTs, the GTIL2 can use pv and batteries while loads are still using the grid. Regular GTI cannot do that. Or am I wrong about that aswell?

As for your question, it says that the grid is always allowed to supply 1amp to insure the inverter isnt producing more power than the loads are using. How is knows the grid is supplying only 1 amp I do not know

daromer said:
Yes that hybrid can still be used at exact time.
IM USING IT LIKE THAT.

I bought it because i want to use
1. Solar
2. Battery
3. ONLY grid if above is not enough

Look at the image again. The first option is what you talk about all the time. The system is Bidirectional. Do you undestand what that is?
That means the power can go in ANY direction. It can go to or from battery. It can go to or from Grid. And same with solar at ANY time.

Example: Right NOW its cloudy here. I get 1.5kw of solar... I use 2.5.... Guess where the rest of the energy is coming from? Yeah from my battery bank.




And i have been using it like that for several years.

On MPP they reffer to it as "SBU"

Where it priotizes the first. You can either do this on the load-port or the grid-side. Why do you think they added Battery to grid-tie inverters??
Please read what we have said. And understand that the GTIL is nothing special in that sense. The only special is that they cut out many functions and only use that.

For the MPI it can either do it on the Load or grid port. On the grid port you can
1. Use the SDM630 and it just works.
2. Use external system. I use this with a sensing unit that tells the inverter to 0-grid. I choose this because i have multiple units.
Click to expand...

Daromer first an foremost, thank you for your time and patience with me.

One last question (for now) about the MPI.
In your example, load is 2.5kw, if the MPI is only capable of 2kw max output (if it was a 2kw unit) and its using the available solar for 1.5kw of that load and the battery is supplying the remaining 500w that the inverter can supply, does the inverter continue to supply 2kw and the remaining 500w (to fully satisfy the 2.5kw consumption) comes from the grid?
I was under the impression that the MP inverters shutdown when the consumption is over the capacity of the inverter, then the mpi resumes output when consumption falls below the MPs capacity.
Does the MPI shut down - stop supplying power to loads when consumption is over the inverters max capacity output?
 
Ok so I have figured out (with the help of kind people here) that there is hybrid inverters that can allow the grid to supply the remaining power the total homes loads need while allowing the homes total loads to use pv and battery, like the GTIL2 can do.

Again I have to say, the GTIL2 is not a normal GTI. It can use pv and batteries while the homes loads can finish being supplied by the grid.
Every GTI (not hybrid) inverter that I have researched does not allow the batteries to be used while the homes loads can still use the grid.
Exceptions are some really high voltage GTI (high voltage battery) will allow pv, battery and grid to be used for homes loads at the same time.
And the GTIL2 has built in limiting that completely stops the inverter from producing more power than the homes loads can use.

Hybrid comes with charge controller built in. I do not need that. AC charging capabilities. I do not need that. Ability to have power from pv when grids down. I do not need that.
Although,
my home will most likely be sold to someone I know and if they want everything to stay (charge controller, grid tie inverters, offgrid inverter) then hybrid is an option. That if I can find a hybrid that will absolutely only allow the inverter to supply what the loads are using. Preferably allowing the grid to supply a small amount of power all of the time.
 
If you sell your house you cannot do that with illegal hooked up inverter anyways.

Once again there is nothing special about the GTIL*

About your questions:

You are missing the point here how it works... The Inverter DOES NOT care anything about what happens on the grid side. It will supply what ever its told to supply to the grid. If its managed by a 0-meter or not doesnt matter.
If you take 100kW from the grid and the MPP only can give 10kW it doesnt matter... Same with all Grid-tie systems. It will just do what it does and not care.

Its totally different if you run on the Load side but that is different. its 2 different ways of using power. grid-tie side or load side.

The MPI itself..... It works like this on the load side:
It will be able by itself from Battery + solar + grid. (Yes it can combine ALL 3) to supply 10kW max continues... This unit doesn't exist in smaller size. Then you get the hybrid that is 5kw... but thats single phase. Mine is 3phase.
If the load above 10kW it will work untill it deem it as overload. Max is 16kW. It firstly go and switch to pass through so grid-input goes to grid-output. It then allow 16kW. If that is tripped it shut down. If that is a concern you add more inverters to handle the load.
You can hook multiple inverters in paralell up if needed. Several can do that if you need the OFFGRID function on an hybrid system.

but AGAIN. DO NOT confuse this with the grid-tie function you seem to have been stuck on.
The grid-side dont car shit about what inverter you have hooked up in terms of capacity.
 
I can certainly sell my house to someone I know and if they want to keep the solar they can certainly do that.

Daromer can you recommend another GTI (not hybrid) inverter that can use pv and battery to supply the homes loads while the grid can still be used at the same time for those loads.
I dont think you will find one. Ive been looking for a while. The GTIL2 is a GTI, the L stands for limiting and the 2 stands for the second version. Whats left is GTI and I (with confidence) will say you wont find any other GTI that can use batteries to supply the homes loads while the loads can also use grid power. Unless they are a high voltage GTI that uses a really high voltage battery. That is whats special about the GTIL2
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top