Outback charge controller not using all of the arrays volts
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Doin it
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Ik there isnt such a thing in the manual etc.. that doesnt mean it doesnt exist.. it cant be denied the the optimal array vmp for the highest voltage battery (60v) is 90v and that happens to equal 150v... this combined voltage is the most efficient voltage for a 60v battery,,, an array over 90v is not as efficient and unnecessary losses would happen.. the 60v battery is the highest the outback can charge, so an array Vmp for any other lower volt battery should be lower than the optimal-most efficient array (90v) that the 60v battery should use.. therefor 150v should be the highest combined voltage for any battery lower than 60v.. this is true because the further the array voltage is from the battery voltage the less efficient the controller becomes.. the optimal-most efficient mpp voltage for the 48v battery is 68v right? Thats what the graphs says... so that combined is 116v and 10 more volt higher Vmp to make sure mpp is reached = roughly 126v combined voltage for the 48v battery for optimal efficiency,, the graph shows any higher array voltage used will be less efficient.............
daromer
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No and no.
Start to use "Enter"
The controller you have do have that YES but it have nothing to do with the 150V. Thats the max input voltage limit and nothing else.
What you have done so far is just to twist the numbers to suit something you made up. Instead look at facts.
A manufacturer of a charge controller (If they know what they are doing) will optimize the charger to a certain setup. That often fits the most common setup out there like 3s with 60c or 72c panels.
So stop referring to that the efficiency is in direct relation to 150v number because it isnt. Its just a coincidence for that inverter.
And once again go back and read what we all have tried to explain and you will see that we dont object efficiency or what not. Its the relation to the max voltage input that is bogus.
Start to use "Enter"
The controller you have do have that YES but it have nothing to do with the 150V. Thats the max input voltage limit and nothing else.
What you have done so far is just to twist the numbers to suit something you made up. Instead look at facts.
A manufacturer of a charge controller (If they know what they are doing) will optimize the charger to a certain setup. That often fits the most common setup out there like 3s with 60c or 72c panels.
So stop referring to that the efficiency is in direct relation to 150v number because it isnt. Its just a coincidence for that inverter.
And once again go back and read what we all have tried to explain and you will see that we dont object efficiency or what not. Its the relation to the max voltage input that is bogus.
Doin it
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How is is bogus.. I didnt make it up.. math is what math is...Id strongly assume this is the same for every 150v inverter, the further u get from the battery voltage the less efficient the controller becomes. Read the graphs it shows this..
also do u see in the one pic where it says the optimal mpp voltage for particular battery voltages. U can see in the pic I posted and the graph red and I both posted how the optimal-most efficient mppt voltage for batteries is lower if the voltage of the battery is lower.. 60v battery has a higher optimal mpp voltage than a 48v battery, this is shown on the graphs..
for a 60v battery pic says 80v mpp voltage is the optimal input voltage., to make sure thats able to be achieved a 90vmp array should be used= 60v +90v=150v..
At this point I give up.. good luck to yas, and if u want to have an array over the optimal- most efficient array voltage for your battery thats fine with me.. read the graphs and see what your optimal-most efficient voltage is for your battery,, then add that to your battery voltage,, I bet its under 155v and I bet for a 48v battery the combined voltage would be under 130v...
I will not post again on this issue.. no matter what is said
also do u see in the one pic where it says the optimal mpp voltage for particular battery voltages. U can see in the pic I posted and the graph red and I both posted how the optimal-most efficient mppt voltage for batteries is lower if the voltage of the battery is lower.. 60v battery has a higher optimal mpp voltage than a 48v battery, this is shown on the graphs..
for a 60v battery pic says 80v mpp voltage is the optimal input voltage., to make sure thats able to be achieved a 90vmp array should be used= 60v +90v=150v..
At this point I give up.. good luck to yas, and if u want to have an array over the optimal- most efficient array voltage for your battery thats fine with me.. read the graphs and see what your optimal-most efficient voltage is for your battery,, then add that to your battery voltage,, I bet its under 155v and I bet for a 48v battery the combined voltage would be under 130v...
I will not post again on this issue.. no matter what is said
not2bme
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To all boys and girls joining this class
This statement is correct. To have optimal voltage it tends to be 10-20 volts higher. Your panels needs to have a higher voltage than the battery to be able to charge it. That's it.
This statement is utter nonsense. It's a number made up that seems to coincide with something utterly unrelated. Please do not even try to make sense of it. It will just drive you nuts!
Here's one that's better, I lived on a street when I was a kid and the address was600 Den Cove. It was a red apartment building with 6 floors and 60 apartments. It always creeped me out. Then one day I started looking at the numbers and added it up, 600+6+60 = 666! It was the mark of the devil! True story! :angel:
Doinit said:
This statement is correct. To have optimal voltage it tends to be 10-20 volts higher. Your panels needs to have a higher voltage than the battery to be able to charge it. That's it.
Doinit said:
This statement is utter nonsense. It's a number made up that seems to coincide with something utterly unrelated. Please do not even try to make sense of it. It will just drive you nuts!
Here's one that's better, I lived on a street when I was a kid and the address was600 Den Cove. It was a red apartment building with 6 floors and 60 apartments. It always creeped me out. Then one day I started looking at the numbers and added it up, 600+6+60 = 666! It was the mark of the devil! True story! :angel:
You've come up with an imaginary number addition. Yes, you made it up.
It's not engineering based & is nonsense. No system designers use it. The manufacturers don't use it.
Sooner you give up on that the better for your understanding & our sanity.
I'm pleased to see you've realized that higher voltage doesn't mean more power & the best efficiency point is Varray approx 20V higher than the battery voltage. This is progress.
When your panels are new they may produce up to +5W according to the spec.
When your panels are cold &/or there's a good wind blowing you may also get a bit more than the NOCT numbers.
If you post a screen shot of the FM60 & tell us the temperatures of your panels at peak production we can tell you why you're getting the claimed 350W more than ~2,690W NOCT value expected.
We can use the manufacturers spec of "temperature coefficient of Pmax = -0.410% per deg C from STC (25C)"
So for your 224.2W NOCT panels, that's 224.2 x 0.0041 = ~9.2W per panel per deg C away (lower) from 44 degC typical NOCT < edit, oops, wrong number fixed
That's 0.92W x 12 panels for your array, ie 11W more per degC lower than NOCT temp.<edit, oops, wrong number fixed
You may also get up to 60W of variance from the = +5W/panel in the spec.
So basically if your panels are 30 degC below NOCT, you'll get the +350W you're seeing.[size=small][size=small]<[/size][/size][size=small][size=small]edit, oops,wrong number fixed[/size][/size]
It's not engineering based & is nonsense. No system designers use it. The manufacturers don't use it.
Sooner you give up on that the better for your understanding & our sanity.
I'm pleased to see you've realized that higher voltage doesn't mean more power & the best efficiency point is Varray approx 20V higher than the battery voltage. This is progress.
When your panels are new they may produce up to +5W according to the spec.
When your panels are cold &/or there's a good wind blowing you may also get a bit more than the NOCT numbers.
If you post a screen shot of the FM60 & tell us the temperatures of your panels at peak production we can tell you why you're getting the claimed 350W more than ~2,690W NOCT value expected.
We can use the manufacturers spec of "temperature coefficient of Pmax = -0.410% per deg C from STC (25C)"
So for your 224.2W NOCT panels, that's 224.2 x 0.0041 = ~9.2W per panel per deg C away (lower) from 44 degC typical NOCT < edit, oops, wrong number fixed
That's 0.92W x 12 panels for your array, ie 11W more per degC lower than NOCT temp.<edit, oops, wrong number fixed
You may also get up to 60W of variance from the = +5W/panel in the spec.
So basically if your panels are 30 degC below NOCT, you'll get the +350W you're seeing.[size=small][size=small]<[/size][/size][size=small][size=small]edit, oops,wrong number fixed[/size][/size]
Doin it
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I guess I cant resist... 90v is not a made up number.. 80v is 30% higher than the 60v battery, string sizing tools recommend an array with a 30% higher voltage than the battery voltage so the battery can be charged and so the optimal voltage to charge the battery can be achieved, that will make your controller operate the most efficient.. that equals 140v.. the graphs show that if the installed array was higher in voltage the efficiency goes down..
I added 10v to the 80v to assure the optimal 80v can be achieved from the array so that makes a 150v combined voltage.. 140v combined would be more efficient due to the array being 10v lower, graph shows if installed array had lower Vmp input then controller would be more efficient.. problem with combined 140v is that then the array is only 80vmp so I added the 10v to assure that 80v (optimal most efficient voltage shown on graph) can be achieved..
so since my numbers are so-called nonsense.. answer this for me.. What is the most efficient array voltage for a 60v battery, and same question for 48v battery..
going by the graphs thats 68v for a 48v battery= 116v
Going by the graphs thats 80v for a 60v battery=140v
most efficient combined voltage for the highest battery the controller can charge is 140v-150v....engineers etc do use this number even if they dont know it because thats the most efficient combined voltage for the highest battery voltage their controllers can charge... or would a combined voltage for the 60v battery be more efficient at 170v,, Ik the answer,, its no, it wouldnt be more efficient because the graphs show that if the arrays mpp voltage is higher that there is less efficiency.. 170v is higher than 150v...
I could just be saying that the most efficient array voltages are blank for each battery but then the battery voltage would have to be said and the array Vmp would have to be said separately, so if it makes yas happy even tho its a longer way to look at it - type it... 48v batteries-array should be roughly 68v for best efficiency...
60v battery- 80v array should be used for best efficiency.. add them together if u want
I added 10v to the 80v to assure the optimal 80v can be achieved from the array so that makes a 150v combined voltage.. 140v combined would be more efficient due to the array being 10v lower, graph shows if installed array had lower Vmp input then controller would be more efficient.. problem with combined 140v is that then the array is only 80vmp so I added the 10v to assure that 80v (optimal most efficient voltage shown on graph) can be achieved..
so since my numbers are so-called nonsense.. answer this for me.. What is the most efficient array voltage for a 60v battery, and same question for 48v battery..
going by the graphs thats 68v for a 48v battery= 116v
Going by the graphs thats 80v for a 60v battery=140v
most efficient combined voltage for the highest battery the controller can charge is 140v-150v....engineers etc do use this number even if they dont know it because thats the most efficient combined voltage for the highest battery voltage their controllers can charge... or would a combined voltage for the 60v battery be more efficient at 170v,, Ik the answer,, its no, it wouldnt be more efficient because the graphs show that if the arrays mpp voltage is higher that there is less efficiency.. 170v is higher than 150v...
I could just be saying that the most efficient array voltages are blank for each battery but then the battery voltage would have to be said and the array Vmp would have to be said separately, so if it makes yas happy even tho its a longer way to look at it - type it... 48v batteries-array should be roughly 68v for best efficiency...
60v battery- 80v array should be used for best efficiency.. add them together if u want
Doinit said:
This thread is a lot easier to understand after a few drinks!
So just to clarify, Your array + battery should equal 150 because that is the max OCV for the controller that happens to fit the efficiency curve but if you had a 48v battery then the numbers are totally random and don't fit your coincidence math? Is the 48v battery 48v nominal or Max? Is your 60v battery nominal or max? I have so many questions and at this point I'm just stirring the pot.
If you keep smashing your head into the wall and it isn't busting a hole is that because your head is soft or the wall is really hard?
Doin it
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Ok at this point I figured everyone reading would know Im referring to 48v nominal and 60v nominal... 60v nominal is the max battery the outback can charge and the best array Vmp for that battery to insure the most optimal-most efficient mpp voltage is achieved for that battery is 80-90v.. yes 80-90v is the most efficient mpp voltage for the 60v battery.. it is shown in the graphs that if there is an input voltage higher that the controller becomes less efficient..
so if anyone can follow that, it means that for a 60v nominal battery dont use an array over 90v or efficiency will suffer and less losses..
yes the outback says an array can be used up to 150v max.. I wouldnt recommend that array over 80-90v is used for best efficiency for the max nominal battery voltage the controller can charge... again the graphs show to only use an array voltage high enough to achieve the most efficient mpp voltage. So again for the most efficient setup use a do not use a combined voltage (nominal battery + array Vmp) over 150v for the max battery 60v battery the controller can charge.. for a 48v battery the combined number is lower than 150v and as I described the combined number for a 48v nominal battery is more like roughly 123v any higher than 123v combined is less efficient..thinking of it this way gets ppl away from thinking that using a 120v array (instead of a 75v array Vmp) for a 48v nominal battery is Just as efficient . using a 120vmp array will be less efficient than a 75vmp array, the graphs show this.. since using a 120v array is less efficient than using a 75v array that means that a person will receive less percentage of power from there array...
So for me I shouldnt have a combined voltage over 150v and no one with a battery voltage lower than 60v nominal should have a combined voltage over 150v either, as a matter of fact they should have a much lower combined voltage than 150v for best efficiency when using the 48v nominal battery
so if anyone can follow that, it means that for a 60v nominal battery dont use an array over 90v or efficiency will suffer and less losses..
yes the outback says an array can be used up to 150v max.. I wouldnt recommend that array over 80-90v is used for best efficiency for the max nominal battery voltage the controller can charge... again the graphs show to only use an array voltage high enough to achieve the most efficient mpp voltage. So again for the most efficient setup use a do not use a combined voltage (nominal battery + array Vmp) over 150v for the max battery 60v battery the controller can charge.. for a 48v battery the combined number is lower than 150v and as I described the combined number for a 48v nominal battery is more like roughly 123v any higher than 123v combined is less efficient..thinking of it this way gets ppl away from thinking that using a 120v array (instead of a 75v array Vmp) for a 48v nominal battery is Just as efficient . using a 120vmp array will be less efficient than a 75vmp array, the graphs show this.. since using a 120v array is less efficient than using a 75v array that means that a person will receive less percentage of power from there array...
So for me I shouldnt have a combined voltage over 150v and no one with a battery voltage lower than 60v nominal should have a combined voltage over 150v either, as a matter of fact they should have a much lower combined voltage than 150v for best efficiency when using the 48v nominal battery
daromer
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You are Still wrong and just try to screw the Numbers. The best efficiency totally depends on the manufacturer and have nothing to do with those 150.... The best efficiency is different from system to system..feel free to Read Up on their datasheets (that you Still havent done)
not2bme
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Doinit said:
Just fyi, for eveyone else, the above is true for Voc of the panel and not Vmp. He keeps confusing numbers to the point he actually believes in what he makes up and start recommending to other people to follow his thought. Quite absurd.
The Voc is the solar panel at open circuit, which is when the panel isn't loaded and able to produce the maximum voltage. The Vmp is the voltage at max power, which is always lower. For example a solar panel might have a Vmp of 33.4V while the Voc is 40.2V.
So for a controller that can handle 150V max, it means you don't want the maximum voltage the panel can provide.
Using sample panel Vmp 33.4V and Voc 40.2V
3S (3 in series) the Vmp is 33.4V*3=100.2V and Voc is 40.2V * 3 = 120.6V (GOOD)
4S (4 in series) the Vmp is 33.4*4=133.6V and the Voc 40.2V * 4 = 160.8V (BAD TOO HIGH VOLTAGE)
Using sample panel Vmp 26.8 and Voc 34.5V
3S (3 in series) the Vmp is 26.8V*3=80.4V and Voc is 34.5 * 3 = 103.5V (GOOD)
4S (4 in series) the Vmp is 26.8V*4=107.2V and the Voc 34.5V * 4 = 138V (GOOD)
So all that matters is that your Voc does not exceed 150V.
And not the nonsense of the Battery + PV that he's trying to convince you.
Doin it
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I guess I had to say 150v was voc... I figured that was known.. I have read the data sheets-graphs but it seems like others are avoiding what the graphs-data sheets say. By using array voc-Vmp higher than is needed for the battery, therefor losing efficiency and not getting as much power from their array as they could be with a lower vmp-voc that is more efficient-less losses..
Yes Not2bme 100vmp and 107vmp (as u describe) are good and can be used with 48v (nominal) and 60v (nominal) batteries but if the graphs are looked at it will be seen that a lower than 100vmp or 107vmp array should be used for better efficiency. Can u see how the closer the array is to the actual battery voltage the better the efficiency is?, therefor getting more power from an array with the same wattage.. so again the max combined voltage for BEST EFFICIENCY-least amount of losses, is 150v (Vmp + nominal battery voltage) for 60v battery and any battery voltage lower with a lower nominal voltage should have a combined voltage lower than 150v..
Not2bme if u would have added a Vmp of 80v with the other voltages u chose to write about, the 80v could have been labeled as better (for 48v nominal battery).. yes 100vmp (as u described) is still good for a 48v (nominal) battery but not as efficient as an 80vmp would be for that battery... this is shown on the power curve pics
Yes Not2bme 100vmp and 107vmp (as u describe) are good and can be used with 48v (nominal) and 60v (nominal) batteries but if the graphs are looked at it will be seen that a lower than 100vmp or 107vmp array should be used for better efficiency. Can u see how the closer the array is to the actual battery voltage the better the efficiency is?, therefor getting more power from an array with the same wattage.. so again the max combined voltage for BEST EFFICIENCY-least amount of losses, is 150v (Vmp + nominal battery voltage) for 60v battery and any battery voltage lower with a lower nominal voltage should have a combined voltage lower than 150v..
Not2bme if u would have added a Vmp of 80v with the other voltages u chose to write about, the 80v could have been labeled as better (for 48v nominal battery).. yes 100vmp (as u described) is still good for a 48v (nominal) battery but not as efficient as an 80vmp would be for that battery... this is shown on the power curve pics
daromer
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Closing this thread.
The 150V value that you indicate is nonsense and bogus. There are NO RELATION to max voltage that is 150 to a combined voltage.
Just because your values lined up here doesnt make them a thing.
You have gotten stuck at a value that is not real. We all agree that efficiency depends but this varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. Efficiency is not all either because in some areas another configuration actually gives you more wattage in the output.
The 150V value that you indicate is nonsense and bogus. There are NO RELATION to max voltage that is 150 to a combined voltage.
Just because your values lined up here doesnt make them a thing.
You have gotten stuck at a value that is not real. We all agree that efficiency depends but this varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. Efficiency is not all either because in some areas another configuration actually gives you more wattage in the output.
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