Question on sizing Parallel cell/module copper connections


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hmm I came across braided copper wire mesh (70a rated), and found I can get it way, way cheaper than solid copper, and it's sold by the meter. So less wasteage. (Because it's flexible, and can be rolled up, so shipping is cheap.) I searched past posts, and see that it's been used with 18650's as a busbar. (ie. https://secondlifestorage.com/index.php?threads/tubular-braided-shield-tinned-copper-as-busbar.3986/)

I'd be worried about losing surface area If I tried bolting through it directly to the terminal, because of the unevenness with the braiding. Do you think that would be an issue?

queue the brainstorming...

I know you want the busbar in direct contact with the terminal, (no washers between), but what if: ...you expanded the mesh at each of the terminal connections, then sandwiched it between 2 larger washers and then bolted through them. I suppose you could even solder it to the flat washers. Something like this:

Ordered and rec'd the braided wire mesh. One big benefit of using it is I won't need to drill millions of holes for the terminal bolts. If you're careful, you can pry apart the braids for the bolt to pass through. (y):D

1730268393343.png
 
Okay, I'm thinking about the center lug parallel connections now. (There'll be 13 in the final stacks)

1731301913105.png


Just double-checking, but my understanding is that it's only used for balancing the cell group. So if my BMS (JIKONG BMS JK-PB2A16S15P) does 2a active balancing, having 18a capable wire parallel connecting the center terminals will be more than adequate. (??)
 
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Okay, I'm thinking about the center lug parallel connections now. (There's be 13 in the final stacks)

View attachment 32563

Just double-checking, but my understanding is that it's only used for balancing the cell group. So if my BMS (JIKONG BMS JK-PB2A16S15P) does 2a active balancing, having 18a capable wire parallel connecting the center terminals will be more than adequate. (??)
Agree with you're logic. If the main current flow wiring is hooked up during load, then the balance wires will not carry current other than balancing - typically 1-2a. If they're very long, it's good to have thick enough wire to avoid any resistance to throw off voltage readings back to the BMS and 18a capable sounds OK for this.
 
Agree with you're logic. If the main current flow wiring is hooked up during load, then the balance wires will not carry current other than balancing - typically 1-2a. If they're very long, it's good to have thick enough wire to avoid any resistance to throw off voltage readings back to the BMS and 18a capable sounds OK for this.
Thanks! 😃 I ordered more of the braided wire mesh.
When I cut it, I'll leave some extra rolled-up at the top of each of the parallel connections, ready for when I add more modules.
 
When I cut it, I'll leave some extra rolled-up at the top of each of the parallel connections, ready for when I add more modules.

Insulate the you-know-what out of it. Those pigtails will be able to carry lots of current if they happen to short to ground, etc. I'd be doubly concerned about this with the flexible nature of the braided mesh, compared to a traditional rigid bar. :oops:

I'll be interested to see pics of your "mesh buss bars" when they are complete. I used aluminum bar stock on my 14s14p battery made from first-gen Leaf cells. It has worked fine -- I can't remember when I put it in service, but it's been at least three years or so now.

Cheers, John
 
Insulate the you-know-what out of it. Those pigtails will be able to carry lots of current if they happen to short to ground, etc. I'd be doubly concerned about this with the flexible nature of the braided mesh, compared to a traditional rigid bar. :oops:

I'll be interested to see pics of your "mesh buss bars" when they are complete. I used aluminum bar stock on my 14s14p battery made from first-gen Leaf cells. It has worked fine -- I can't remember when I put it in service, but it's been at least three years or so now.

Cheers, John
Totally agree! I'll tie-wrap the ends into tight coils, and put them into glass jars. Also planning on covering all the mesh...

"...my 14s14p battery made from first-gen Leaf" Curious if you've seen any degradation in 3 years of service? What are you powering with it?

Cheers!
 
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"...my 14s14p battery made from first-gen Leaf" Curious if you've seen any degradation in 3 years of service? What are you powering with it?

I haven't seen any degradation, but I also haven't really looked or tested. The battery sees only occasional use (mostly weekends these days) and I have the operating voltage window set to a pretty conservative range for longevity of the cells -- something like 3.7 - 4.05v, I think. The battery powers my off-grid barn / workshop, through a Growatt off-grid inverter -- I can't remember if it's a 6kw or an 8kw. The building is 30x50, all steel on a concrete slab, and I believe I have 16 solar panels roof-mounted, 315w apiece, if memory serves. A Batrium BMS keeps an eye on things, but my use makes it little more than a cell monitor and glorified balancer. It does have a shunt and breaker that it can remotely trip, but I don't recall that it has ever had to do that. I'm attaching one photo, but it's not the best -- just the back side of all the cells in the rolling server rack where I mounted them. You can also see the inverter a bit, mounted below the service panel behind the battery.

I have an small office and 3/4 bathroom there, heated and cooled with a 1-ton mini-split. Sometimes I leave it on all the time, sometimes I turn it off. I have a shallow well pump to supply water to the building. Tons of overhead fluorescent tubes. I run all manner of 110v tools at will, and occasionally some 220v tools. (The inverter isn't quite strong enough to start my 80-gallon air compressor, which is kind of disappointing. I haven't looked into a start kit or anything like that for it, because I don't need it badly enough to bother -- I've got an identical unit up at the on-grid garage I can use when needed.) The inverter will run my manual engine lathe and CNC mill, both through a three-phase VFD. There's a standard 40-gallon electric water heater for the office/bath, but I have rewired it down to one element so it doesn't overload the inverter -- and I also have a switch to turn it on and off as needed, since it's pretty rare that I require hot water down there.

For nearly a year, I had someone living down there and using the office as an efficiency/studio sized apartment, so all systems stayed on 24x7. Everything performed flawlessly with the exception of during a blizzard week when Texas got over a foot of snow and temps didn't get above zero for five or six days straight. With the solar panels covered, I ran an 8kw gas generator into the Growatt inverter/charger for a couple of hours during the day to make sure the batteries had enough charge to make it through the nights without generator racket. As soon as things warmed up and the panels melted off, the system went right back to normal operation.

I am keeping the Leaf-based system as-is down at the shop, but I recently bought a couple tons of BYD batteries (LiFePO4 chemistry) that I plan to deploy up at the house -- that's another project for another day and another thread! I am hoping for it to be a hybrid grid-tie / full home backup solution when all is said and done. Hope this info is helpful or at least interesting as you build out your own Leaf-based battery.

Cheers, John
 

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I haven't seen any degradation, but I also haven't really looked or tested. The battery sees only occasional use (mostly weekends these days) and I have the operating voltage window set to a pretty conservative range for longevity of the cells -- something like 3.7 - 4.05v, I think. The battery powers my off-grid barn / workshop, through a Growatt off-grid inverter -- I can't remember if it's a 6kw or an 8kw. The building is 30x50, all steel on a concrete slab, and I believe I have 16 solar panels roof-mounted, 315w apiece, if memory serves. A Batrium BMS keeps an eye on things, but my use makes it little more than a cell monitor and glorified balancer. It does have a shunt and breaker that it can remotely trip, but I don't recall that it has ever had to do that. I'm attaching one photo, but it's not the best -- just the back side of all the cells in the rolling server rack where I mounted them. You can also see the inverter a bit, mounted below the service panel behind the battery.

I have an small office and 3/4 bathroom there, heated and cooled with a 1-ton mini-split. Sometimes I leave it on all the time, sometimes I turn it off. I have a shallow well pump to supply water to the building. Tons of overhead fluorescent tubes. I run all manner of 110v tools at will, and occasionally some 220v tools. (The inverter isn't quite strong enough to start my 80-gallon air compressor, which is kind of disappointing. I haven't looked into a start kit or anything like that for it, because I don't need it badly enough to bother -- I've got an identical unit up at the on-grid garage I can use when needed.) The inverter will run my manual engine lathe and CNC mill, both through a three-phase VFD. There's a standard 40-gallon electric water heater for the office/bath, but I have rewired it down to one element so it doesn't overload the inverter -- and I also have a switch to turn it on and off as needed, since it's pretty rare that I require hot water down there.

For nearly a year, I had someone living down there and using the office as an efficiency/studio sized apartment, so all systems stayed on 24x7. Everything performed flawlessly with the exception of during a blizzard week when Texas got over a foot of snow and temps didn't get above zero for five or six days straight. With the solar panels covered, I ran an 8kw gas generator into the Growatt inverter/charger for a couple of hours during the day to make sure the batteries had enough charge to make it through the nights without generator racket. As soon as things warmed up and the panels melted off, the system went right back to normal operation.

I am keeping the Leaf-based system as-is down at the shop, but I recently bought a couple tons of BYD batteries (LiFePO4 chemistry) that I plan to deploy up at the house -- that's another project for another day and another thread! I am hoping for it to be a hybrid grid-tie / full home backup solution when all is said and done. Hope this info is helpful or at least interesting as you build out your own Leaf-based battery.

Cheers, John
Wow, sounds like a sweet setup. Hopefully, my future holds a similar sized woodworking shop. I've got the land/space for it, but right now I'm focused on upgrading the house. (off topic: I had friends in Kerrville, Tx. and visited a few times on motorcycle when I was young. Loved Texas BBQ, w Mesquite smoked meats. 🤤)
 
@DG98 What would you estimate the temperature range is of your batteries throughout the year?

@corndog : Here in deep East Texas, the interior shop temps are almost never above 90F, and very rarely below 50F -- so the battery temp should track the same range. It is located in a non-conditioned area of the shop, but the building is pretty well-insulated and slow to respond to ambient changes outside. Also, the 6" nominal concrete slab in contact with the soil below is a big mass that helps to stabilize interior temps. During the blizzard I mentioned above, the outside temperature stayed right around 0F for five or six days. The interior shop temperature did not drop below 32F, but it did hover right there around freezing after the second or third day of the storm. Just to be on the safe side, I used a propane radiant heater to warm the batteries up a little bit before and while charging them with the generator during that week. I am guessing that the batteries were probably about 45-50F while charging -- I didn't check the Batrium temp monitors because it was obvious by touch that they were "not frozen."

@Fukuokian : My grandmother was born and raised in the area around Kerrville, TX. It's a neat little town, and there's still a population there that speaks German as their first / native language. It's a great part of the state and the country.

I looked at my attached photo again this morning and I'm a little embarrassed how dirty the shop floor looks -- it is time to sweep up!! Between warm and very dry weather causing a late fall planting season this year and the opening of deer season two weekends ago, it looks like I'm a bit behind on my routine chores.

Cheers, John
 
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