Red Sanyo 18650 Cells Getting Hot While Charging

[Wolf]

@Wolf I did not had a reliable way to do that. I was thinking of building my own device for IR measures, but then I got some Opuses so I guess that's a good start.

Yes at least you are aware or the implications of IR and that is good!!
There are several 4 wire solutions out there I personally use the YR1030 it is relatively reasonable US~$50.00.
Cherry67 has a great write up on a DIY version.
Ijust purchased a Fluke 8842A 5.5 Count Digital Multimeter Bench Top DMMto be absolutely sure of all the readings I am getting.
This meter is one of the standards in accuracy so I am looking forward to using it.
With the OPUS I'msure you know that the IR is horribly skewed and always at least 30m? high as per the manual and at least 10% to 20%off.




That can make a huge difference in how you sort and process cells.
At this time I am recording pretty much all cells to build an IR to capacity correlation database so I am testing cells with IR values that I would absolutely not use in my build. They would be in a lets see later binbut for the sake of the database I record them and after almost 1900 cells checked and recorded I am getting a good feel of what cells are good and which ones I should not even bother with. But again for the sake of the database I continue.

Happy cell hunting and get some way to measure true IR.

Wolf

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[DCkiwi]

@DCkiwi I think I could do it with 2 resistors,
[...]
Note: do excuse the paint job.

I like your paint job. Better than my skills ...

Albeit Im not so sure what this has to do with the OP/thread. I assume you are going down the IR rabbit hole? You are on the right track, but Im not so sure this is the thread/place for this discussion.

 

[Wolf]

Albeit Im not so sure what this has to do with the OP/thread. I assume you are going down the IR rabbit hole? You are on the right track, but Im not so sure this is the thread/place for this discussion.

Agreed the IR rabbit hole it always comes down to that doesnt it?

OK I will quit.
I'm lying
Wolf

 

[quadrofource]

Hello! I just found my first batch of 18650 sanyo red cells which didn't go above 50'c i always blamed the lii-500 charger for the hot cells because the underside of it got really hot aswell. The hottest cell i've had was a LGDB118650 which i forgot about for 15 minutes and when i came back they where around 60-70c from then on i put a 5v 120mm fan pointed at the batteries charging and discharging. I still got all my sanyo red 18650's so i might test them again. i even got a cell which is not in the database because of the teal insulator ring. if interested i can post a picture of that. someone even mentioned this cell in the forum's but the admin asked if he was sure it was a sanyo ur18650a and then he never responded again. Here a vid of me checking the temperature of the sanyo cells. The ones in the video are UR18650A white insulator ring and without a fan pointed at them.
The cells are from 2013https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_HZOYTfCVc Private youtube video link







These are not in the database i think. UR18650A Teal insulator ring

 

[bansalrehana]

I was trying to say that, if you want to use that cell for a powerwall with a max voltage per cell of 4.0v, you could avoid some heat. But, in the other hand i think that's not a good policy, because you're just hiding a future problem.

 

[1xAA]

Uhm...anyone in the US market for some Sanyo red cells? I really don't want to sell these to anyone that does not know about their reputation.

 

[rev0]

Some sellers have no moral qualms about selling heaters... (https://www.batteryclearinghouse.co...in-100-assorted-modem-battery-packs-0-20-each) Pretty sure even Tom from BatteryHookup has sold heaters before, as long as they're clearly labeled as such, people will buy at their own risk.

 

[Korishan]

anyone in the US market for some Sanyo red cells?

please post in the Marketplace and not here. You'll get more views/results that way.

Also make absolutely clear what they are as rev0 mentions.

 

[Wolf]

Once a heater always a heater.
I really won't trust any cell that has exhibited any signs of "heating" whether Sanyoor otherwise.
There are plenty of other cellmanufacturer cells thatexhibit signs of being a "heater".
Sanyo did shoot themselves in the foot and got a bad "rap" though when they decided to wrap all their cells in a red wrapper.
To be fair to Sanyo though,I have experienced "heaters" from all manufactures,althoughever since I started to measure IR as my first testing step I no longer have "heaters" as those cells never make it into the testing stage. So if you want to eliminate your heater issue check IR first if the cellis >100m? chances are you will have a cell that will exhibit heater qualities. The 100m? threshold is by no means a be all end all, there are some cells that will perform very well above that IR level, but very few.

Wolf

 

[resr]

It may be PTC protection element built to the positive terminal that deteriorated with use andheats up the battery. I have CGR18650CE that did the same thing._

 

[rev0]

It may be PTC protection element built to the positive terminal that deteriorated with use andheats up the battery. I have CGR18650CE that did the same thing._

Interesting theory. Next time I come across a heater I'll put my thermal cam on it to see where the heat starts.

 

[The Kilowatt Challenge]

#rediators
nuff said!

 

[rev0]

It may be PTC protection element built to the positive terminal that deteriorated with use andheats up the battery. I have CGR18650CE that did the same thing._

Found a heater - Panasonic CGR18650A, looks like it's heating very evenly, but I'll let it cool off then try it again and do a video.

 

[resr]

Found a heater - Panasonic CGR18650A, looks like it's heating very evenly, but I'll let it cool off then try it again and do a video.

What a coincidence, I have 3 CGR18650A also turned into heaters at the same time with 500mA per cell charge current using M09 usb power bank as a charger, mine the temperature rose to 50-60C before I spotted a problem as it was still half way from charged. Looks like these cells have faulty PID that doesn't disconnect when charging, the voltage on cells were 3.8V after cooling it downso no overvoltage either.
Edit: All 7 cells turned out to be heaters at charge level of3.8V._

 

[Wolf]

......Looks like these cells have faulty PID that doesn't disconnect when charging.............

PTCandCID I have heard of for a 18650 built in protection but never heard of PID.
What is that?

Also these 2 protection devices will not cause a cell to become a heater, matter of fact they are there to prevent a catastrophic event from happening as in overheating and overcurrent.
PTC (Pressure, Temperature, Current) Switch.
CID (Current Interrupt Device)
A "Heater" cell will have high IR pure and simple. Learn about IR...............
Sometimes it is as small of a difference of 5m? toward the higher side.
Also if the PTC and/or CID are defective IR reading would show this and you would not even charge the cell.
Wolf

 

[resr]

PTCandCID I have heard of for a 18650 built in protection but never heard of PID.
What is that?

Memory error. I meant CID. I don't have tools to measure cell IR as I can understand simple multimeter wont cut?_

 

[Wolf]

Memory error. I meant CID. I don't have tools to measure cell IR as I can understand simple multimeter wont cut?_

Understood.
A simple DMM, you are correct will not work. You need a simple ~$50.00 US 4 wire 1Khz m? meter such as a YR1035or RC3563 to measure IR.
Or if you can afford it a Keithley DMM7510.

I do findit kind of funny though, that people get excited about finding "heaters". As if its a trophy,an accomplishment or a right of passage. Mind you I have done the same in the past so I do not escape my own critique. But the object of the harvesting exercise is to minimize theses lessons and certainly not seek them out.
All I have to do to get a heater is get a cell (any cell) with a high IR >120m? and charge it. Sanyos got a bad wrap because their chemistry is very sensitive to high IR and will defiantly warm up your tester and may even melt it. On the other hand I have charged many a Sanyo,with proper IR, usually <= 50m? at 1A ,without them even breaking a sweat, keeping between the 25C to35C range through the whole C/D/C cycle.

Wolf

 

[resr]

...A simple DMM, you are correct will not work. You need a simple ~$50.00 US 4 wire 1Khz m? meter such as a YR1035or RC3563 to measure IR.
Or if you can afford it a Keithley DMM7510. ...

Thanks for suggestion, I take a look, maybe I can get one from ali.

...I do findit kind of funny though, that people get excited about finding "heaters". As if its a trophy,an accomplishment or a right of passage. Mind you I have done the same in the past so I do not escape my own critique. ...

I have to admit, at first experience with the heater cell I got scared that it turns into a road flare in my charger, I tossed 'em out as fast as I could. I got rid of these suspicious Sanyo cells, back to battery box just in case it does go up in flames._

 

[Wolf]

....................... I got scared that it turns into a road flare in my charger, I tossed 'em out as fast as I could. I got rid of these suspicious Sanyo cells, back to battery box just in case it does go up in flames._

Road flare highly unlikely but still a possibility. Although cautionis always a good habit to get into.
It is more likely that the "heater" will melt the plastic in you tester. I know it happend to me.
If you read the testing specifications that each cell has to endure before it gets its "Stamp of Approval" from the battery certification institute (whomever they are)
then you soon realize that these things are pretty well put together. All the stress tests they throw at them conclude no leakage, no rupture, noexplosion and no fire.
The protection devices built into these cells are pretty good at maintaining a safety factor even at high stress levels.

Wolf

 

[resr]

I got Yaorea YR1035+ from Aliexpress. I found most of my salvaged cells between 60-150mOhm, Sanyo F's have 78-104mOhm and FM's 45-47mOhm IR. In comparison the NCR18650B from LiitoKala were in 35mOhm range brand new._