Redpacket said:[...] Those graphs are focussed on higher rates, eg if you take ~1C rates (way higher than most DIYers use) the "round trip" in the graphs for energy looks like about .97 (2%) charging & .98 (3%) discharging & figure 6 suggests a whopping 9% @1C!
Since most of us run the batteries at low C charge/discharge rates, we would be operating in the lower % numbers.
Wolf said:So I did a data dump from Batrium since the inception on 5/11/2020 to now and am relieved to see that my previous calculations of battery efficiency as far as Ahs in and out was way off.
My TotalCumulAhCharge was 10656.519
My TotalCumulAhDischg was 10572.424
which gives me a 0.79% loss
gauss163 said:Redpacket said:[...] Those graphs are focussed on higher rates, eg if you take ~1C rates (way higher than most DIYers use) the "round trip" in the graphs for energy looks like about .97 (2%) charging & .98 (3%) discharging & figure 6 suggests a whopping 9% @1C!
Since most of us run the batteries at low C charge/discharge rates, we would be operating in the lower % numbers.
The graphs are not "focused on higher rates" since they show both low and "high" (2C) rates - which was the point of posting them, i.e. to emphasize how the energy efficiency drops off at higherrates. Many folks confuse energy and charge efficiency and so end up overlooking that Li-ion energy losses are nontrivial except at low rates.
As the examples show, for healthy cells,ata lowC/10 rate wecan get round trip efficiency in the range 98% - 99%,but at a higher C/2 rate it dropsto 95% - 97%, and even lower at 1C: 91% to 95%. Of course these energy losses will increase much as the cell ages and IR increases much (a point which needs to be considered during thermal design of any Li-ion powered device).
Redpacket said:As clearly confirmed by several peoples posts here, we're operating our systems in the 1% area.
[...] Good news is losses are small.
gauss163 said:Redpacket said:As clearly confirmed by several peoples posts here, we're operating our systems in the 1% area.
[...] Good news is losses are small.
That's merely aguess without any clear definitions of what the Batrium numbers mean and how they are computed, how accurate they are, etc.(none ofwhich is documented)
As I emphasized above, to precisely measure charge/energy losses requires precise equipment and careful control of (dis)charge processes. This is not something a consumer-level BMS is designed for (the (cumulative) errors in such BMS typicallyalready exceeds 1%).
gauss163 said:^^^ Li-ion charge efficiency is very high - typically over 99% for healthy cells. But energy efficiency is lower due to IR losses.
Redpacket said:On one hand you're agreeing efficiency is high & then you're telling us we're guessing when our measurements confirm that?
Wilhelmetal. said:The changes in CE due to degradation processes through parasitic reactions are very small. Thus, CE studies of these processes require precisely set currents, high precision voltage measurements as well as strictly controlled sample environments [14].
The high sensitivity of these measurements under controlled sample conditions led to the discovery of a surprising reversible capacity effect. Studies found anomalous transient CEs with CE > 1 in high precision cycling experiments after storage [15,16]. This behavior was linked to anode overhang, acting as a lithium-ion source or sink depending on the charging or discharging scenario [16]. Anode overhang means, that areas of the anode active material do not have a cathode counterpart. This results from the negative electrode in a lithium-ion cell being designed slightly larger than the positive electrode. This is a common design feature to assure 100% cathode-anode overlap and to avoid lithium platingat the border area of the graphite anode [17].
[...]
Cycling was performed with a BaSyTec CTS battery test system. All tests were conducted at a controlled temperature 25 0.1 C using a BINDER KT170 climate chamber. For the coulombic efficiency measurements, additional 20 m? shunts were placed in the current path between the battery test system and the battery cells. The voltage drop across each shut were measured with an ultra-low noise, 24-bit sigma-delta analog-digital converter from Analog Devices (7193 CE). This enabled the measurement of the currents flowing into and out of each battery cell with a higher resolution and precision than the battery test system.
gauss163 said:Redpacket said:On one hand you're agreeing efficiency is high & then you're telling us we're guessing when our measurements confirm that?
You can't possibly confirm anything with numbers whose meaning is not properly specified. Since you don't seem to be able to comprehend this crucial point I don't think it is constructive to continue.
gauss163 said:For readers interested in learning more about how charge (coulombic) efficiency (CE) is measured I have appended below an excerpt from a 2017 paper.
Wilhelmetal. said:...... research stuff ....
gauss163 said:Recall that the crucial safety role of the anode overhang area was also discussed in the video I linked recently on the Samsung Galaxy Note 7 batteryfailures.
Redpacket said:Key point: Practical vs academic. Real world vs laboratory. [...] Not achievable in a practical environment. In real world use, currents & temperatures are moving around all the time
Redpacket said:"...anode overhang..."? What? Don't even know why you posted this - we have no control over cell construction?
gauss163 said:Redpacket said:Key point: Practical vs academic. Real world vs laboratory. [...] Not achievable in a practical environment. In real world use, currents & temperatures are moving around all the time
Charge/energy efficiency is most certainly a very practical SOH metric, and useful results may be obtainable even with minor variations in temperature.
Since you seem to have once again missed the point I will elaborate. Let's start with an analogy that is likely more accessible to most readers. Anyone who has used the Opus BT-C3100 analyzing charger likely knows well that its capacity numbers are often way off the mark.
.......
Note that at 80% capacity retention (20% wear) a CE of 99.00, 99.70, 99.90, 99.98% yields 22, 74, 223, 1115 cycles resp. [99.80 is a typo for 99.70 in the graph]. In particular a tiny0.08% decrease in CE yields a hugedecrease incycles, from 1115 to 223. So CE needs to be measured very precisely in order to deduce accurate SOH information. Without such one may suffer the same problems as in the Opus case mentioned above. In fact very high precison CE measurements are used Tesla's battery guru Jeff Dahn in order to empirically deduce chemistry improvements without having to do expensive lengthy cycling tests.
The point of posting that excerpt was to give readers some hint of the high precision needed for such measurements. Note that they had to augment the BaSyTec battery tester system with an ultra low noise 24b ADC in order to get the needed resolution. So one shouldn't just assume that some BMS already has sufficient resolution for such, alongwith sufficiently precise control over the (dis)charge process, etc.
Further, the point of including the remarks about the anode overhangleading to CE > 1 is that you will likely encounter this if you perform CE tests, and knowing about that strangeness means you won't waste much time attempting to troubleshoot your methods when there is in fact no error (this puzzled many folks for a long time until the real reasonwas eventually discovered). This is very useful to know for anyone who is interest in practical CE measurements.
If you stopped your frequent ridiculous science bashing for only a moment you might be able to learn that there are methods of practical use here - just as there is for IR SOH metrics.
Redpacket said:Of course it's laboratory work > testing > manufacturing > real world use of products.
That Opus charger is known to have issues. We all know it's an inexpensive device.gauss163 said:... Anyone who has used the Opus BT-C3100 analyzing charger likely knows well that its capacity numbers are often way off the mark.
....