Vanon Batteries .... Yeh - did they dupe me?

hbpowerwall

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So as you all may know I've had the opportunity to do a review for Vanon Batteries - I completed the review and uploaded it with fantastic confidence that I did an honest job of it. If you haven't seen the video you can view it here -https://youtu.be/NwNy_OLx4FU

In the comments section of that video I had the chance to chat to other Vanonusers of different optionson the batteries - and put it out there if anyone purchaseddue to my review to open the packs and take some photos of what cells they contained - Some reached out yesterday and these are the images & emails I received from them.

We will call him W - to protect identy

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And this guy can be Jake :)

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At this point, I must say I'm disappointed I have no way of knowing if the battery packs received were old stock, new stock - or I just got lucky 'Yeh, lucky' with 30's but it's time to 'test' those 30q's. Two have been removed from the 6ah battery & 2 from the 4ah battery I receivedjust as I was finishing the edit for the video above. Soon I'll release another video with some photos and stuff of the cells out of the battery & naked. Let us see where this takes us.

Images of Samsung 30q's from the Vanon 6ah Battery I recieved for free for review

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Images of LG LGDBHGL1865
Results from cell database search ---https://secondlifestorage.com/celldatabase.php?fkeys=LGDBHGL1865&fbrand=&fform=&fmincap=&fsort=1
Results from Google ---https://www.google.com.au/search?q=LGDBHGL1865&rlz=1C1MSIM_enAU758AU758&oq=LGDBHGL1865&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60.6935j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


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Last five images are LG from my Ryobi Pack & Vanon 4ah Pack

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Pete.... More to come...
 

ozz93666

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I think you're suggesting vanon sent you a special , one off pack with good cells ...

This is always the danger when a company sends you the item .. some of those cells in Jake's pictures don't look like they're new , coming off a production line they should all look clean and identical... Don't put it pass such companies to use cells from used laptop batteries , like we do ... probably the pack was produced in China where a lot of recycling of 18650s goes on.
 

hbpowerwall

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ozz93666 said:
I think you're suggesting vanon sent you a special , one off pack with good cells ...

This is always the danger when a company sends you the item .. some of those cells in Jake's pictures don't look like they're new , coming off a production line they should all look clean and identical... Don't put it pass such companies to use cells from used laptop batteries , like we do ... probably the pack was produced in China where a lot of recycling of 18650s goes on.

Really not keen on jumping to the conclusion of them using Secondhand cells - more Not Samsung/LG ect..
 

hbpowerwall

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First Test...

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Second and so on... looking spot on so far...

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DarkRaven

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If it's too good to be true then it most likely isn't true. I guess no one can sell you a battery with ten INR18650-30Q for under 40 dollars and still make a profit. I don't know how low the price per cell gets when you buy lots of them but it's hard to imagine that this can be done economically even on a large scale. If I get an assembled battery with ten of these cells for under 40 dollars I immediately think something fishy is going on.

The rule of thumb is to always expect non-branded / 2nd grade cells, or whatever you'd like to call them, on cheap 3rd party replacement batteries. You get what you pay for. These cells are not necessarily bad but they are not the real deal either. Don't only test them at low amps on the Opus, put a 15A load on them. The INR18650-30Q are specced for 15A continuous which is the bare minimum for power tools I'd say.

And on the pricing of Ryobi batteries, they earn money on the batteries, not the tools. Their batteries are up to twice the price of a comparable battery from their competitors. Also, having a rather complex BMS on every battery increases the price, I guess. Others put most of the intelligence in the tool (and the charger) and not in the battery.
This is because different brands are aiming at different markets. Ryobi is a TTI brand and aims for the DIY market where many customers might buy several tools but not many batteries. Milwaukee is a TTI brand as well but they serve the professional market. The 18V 5.0Ah Ryobi battery costs 100 EUR here in Germany while the 18V 5.0Ah Milwaukee battery is under 70 EUR. But as with most professional brands Milwaukee rather earns money on the tools which are much more expensive than the ones from Ryobi.
It's the same for Stanley Black&Decker when comparing Black&Decker (DIY) and DeWalt (Pro), also the same for Bosch with their green (DIY) and blue (Pro) series, ...
 

hbpowerwall

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For a short time while I consider my wording I'll be leaving this as unlisted.

 

DarkRaven

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As soon as you've mentioned the caution notice I knew they were going to be LG cells. I've seen it before on LG HG2 cells I used to rebuild a power tool battery. And that's actually a legit thing, LG seemed to be worried about sales of cells to vapers (and DIY people I guess).
I've never seen that ring on the bottom of any LG cells either, older Panasonic cells have one but they look different. The model number suggests that this is a LG HG cell but as you say, no info on it anywhere which is strange. Instead of the L after HG there should be a number to be in line with LGs naming scheme. Like with their HG2 cell, LGABHG21865.

I see where you are going, cycling the cells to see if they show signs of degradation. But as I said I think you should put a bigger load on them than the Opus can do, these are new cells and high(ish) drain cells. If these are proper Samsung cells, and I think they are, then the results will match with their datasheet. As for the LG cells, well, no datasheet on these, but 15A is reasonable for a power tool battery so they should stand up to these kind of loads as well.

My personal opinion as of now is that Vanon actually did set you up. I wonder if that is the reason why it took a while and why you only got a single battery. They probably got that one manufactured just for you! Conspiracy! :D
I honestly wonder if that might be the case. The spotweld issues could be associated with that. They clearly look like spotwelded with wrong settings, maybe made by hand by someone who didn't know better. You can see that too little energy was used as the nickel didn't melt properly.
 

hbpowerwall

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Good to know it's a 'thing' with the caution on the cells but no search results strikes me as odd and that ring says it's not a LG cell for sure. I could be wrong but looks 'cheap' to me. I might do some heavier load tests if I get some time but that is a much more manual process.

with the spotwelds they are very average but feel it was done like that due to the very think nickle strip they used.
 

Willis

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hbpowerwall said:
Good to know it's a 'thing' with the caution on the cells but no search results strikes me as odd and that ring says it's not a LG cell for sure. I could be wrong but looks 'cheap' to me. I might do some heavier load tests if I get some time but that is a much more manual process.

with the spotwelds they are very average but feel it was done like that due to the very think nickle strip they used.

"W" checking back in... I took a few more pictures since I completed my first cycle/test with the battery.

The batteries I received (purchased last Monday, arrived Thursday) certainly aren't Samsungs. They are the MX18650 29P listed in OP. They appear identical to "Jake"s set, which differ from OPs in that the PCB is similar but different, had security torx screws, and were taped down into the housing. My assembled unit weighed in at 709g (compared to 724g from an OEM Ryobi 4.0aH). The batteries themselves look clean/new, and any residue is from the black tape used to hold the cells in place. Tabs look pretty clean. The only real oddity in mine is 1 battery on the inside is labeled differently and states "DYNABAT". It's the one with the thinnest/shortest wrapper on its negative (top, second from right on the side with the safety tape for the eject clip). All the others have the MX18650 29P branding. I tried to get a picture, but the best I could get for readability is the "DY" portion. The only other readable print (really difficult to read inside the pack) is 16L181000936 which I believe is just a serial number. I do not plan to disassemble the pack, as I did just buy this as a tool battery.

The first and only test I've done so far is a low draw fan test, using the Ryobi P3320 fan on high as the test. In this test, the battery pack appears to have done pretty well. I just used wall clocks to time this, and it ran for somewhere between 10 hours 59 minutes and 11 hours and 1 minute, so I'll call it 11 hours even. After it powered off, the battery indicator light did not illuminate at all! It was late into the night (well, early into the morning), so I slept and let it sit for 8 hours. In the morning, the battery test showed 1/4 bars again. A quick voltage check showed 15.64V across the pack. Balance across the cell banks ranged from 3.10V to 3.14V, so decent on the balance.

I'm currently doing a run test on the same fan with an OEM Ryobi 4.0aH battery for direct comparison, but have some time to go, just short of 6 hours into that test, so a bit to go there still, I'll update when it completes.

Edit: The OEM Ryobi 4.0aH battery clocked in at 7hrs28m on the same fan test. It ended at 13.1V, but is slowly climbing back up (up to 13.82V now after 4.75hrs, but I'll wait until 8 hours to test again, which is when I measured the Vanon battery post-load) after sitting. This battery is a bit older, with a 2015 mfg date, unknown how many cycles I've run thorough it, as I have several batteries I alternate. Edit 2: After sitting for 8 hours after depletion, the battery has stabilized to 13.95V compared to 15.64V from the Vanon.

Assuming the Ryobi OEM battery is pretty close to 4.0aH (as it has known reliable cells), that would put this Vanon somewhere around 5.8aH, which for unknown cells is pretty decent, but that is only with a low amp draw test. I'm not sure I have a reliable high amp draw test.


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hbpowerwall

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Thanks for taking even more time with me on this Willis, and thanks for all the great photos. I'll try to take better photos of the bms today. Think I've complete five 1amp cycles so far and all have been near enough to 3000mah. I'm not debating the initial capacity of the cells rather I got Knowen Fantastic cells with a good rep - Others have got cells that appear to be from a manufacturer with unknownquality control & no data sheets to compare against
 

ozz93666

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I really don't understand why you're continuing to test the products the company sent you ...

The suspicion is they custom made these with better cells , so the product you got is not the one people will buy in the shops..

As you're doing already , the way forward is to ask your viewers to take a peep inside the packs they buy , take photos or just test the capacity without breaking them up. ... they are billed as 4AHr and 6AHr ... very easy to test without undoing a screw.
 
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Hi Everyone,

I saw the hbpowerwall Vanon Ryobiyoutube & thought I'd give Vanon a try. I was previously given dead laptop batteries & salvaged a couple hundred 18650's. I use twoOpus BT-3400's & a LiitoKala to 2 pass test. Building 3s6p packs for an electric bike & otherprojects. I have not been able to get more free laptop batteries & have been looking atthe economics of used cells versus new, hah, probably like many people.

Initially I ordered twoVanonDell 9 cell 7800mah 11.1v packs. Eh, not so good, bad welds in one, cells have tested at about 1800mah on the first pass.

Then I ordered two of the Ryobi 6.0 Ahr packs & they came today! Out of the box the first one showed 2 bars, appeared to charge okay on the intelliport charger. Didn't have any beefy power resistors but did have some 12v ptc heating elements so I made a really ugly test rig with heat sinks. Followed a testingidea posted on thebudgetlightforum.com, thread
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46209 and the pack seems to be the real deal. On the first run I gave it a 6amp / 105 watt load & it took a bit more than 48 minutes for the bms to cut off at low voltage. I ran it through a power meter, the PZEM-031 6.5-100v 20A power display & it looked like it output 90+ watt hours. It calculates to more than 6 amp hours keeping in mind the ptc is a variable resistor which sort of messes up the calculation.

I'm charging the 2nd Ryobi pack & will repeat this process a couple times on each pack. The heat sinks got toasty hot, I added a 3rd ptc to push the load closer to 10amps & added a fan just 'cuz. I can probably hang a few more things on the rig to create a 15amp or so total load.

I think I can be pretty lazy & just let the PZEM capture the watt hours, resetting the meter after each run. I think a 6 amp 18 volt pack ought to outputabout 108 watt hours. In the neighborhood of 10 watts per cell.

There are probably other devils in the details, quality issues, etc. but first impression is the Vanon Ryobi pack does produce something close to rated output. I'll post more results as I get them.
 

hbpowerwall

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My beef isn't with the output (yet) it's just I promoted knowen trusted Samsung cells - and no-one-else has got them that I know of yet. I need to upload more tests from my opus cycles i'll do that now.
 

Adiete

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I have the pink cells. Mxz18650 16L23,16K20 etc. Purchased seeing the brand available and your video. Considerable performance in angle grinder. Thanks for bringing this to light.

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station240

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Use for battery pack maker(s)/ system integrator(s) only.
Online e-commerce sales, sales to individual consumer, or sales for e-cigarette use are strictly prohibited.

For anyone that wants pics of legit LG cells with that notice, put one of those sentencesinto google.
 

hbpowerwall

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ozz93666 said:
I really don't understand why you're continuing to test the products the company sent you ...

The suspicion is they custom made these with better cells , so the product you got is not the one people will buy in the shops..

As you're doing already , the way forward is to ask your viewers to take a peep inside the packs they buy , take photos or just test the capacity without breaking them up. ... they are billed as 4AHr and 6AHr ... very easy to test without undoing a screw.
That is what I would like to confirm Ozz, did they set up me up to lie to the community or not.

Adiete said:
I have the pink cells. Mxz18650 16L23,16K20 etc. Purchased seeing the brand available and your video. Considerable performance in angle grinder. Thanks for bringing this to light.

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Thank-You for taking the time to share Adiete, another for the 'Not Samsung' vote :(
station240 said:
Use for battery pack maker(s)/ system integrator(s) only.
Online e-commerce sales, sales to individual consumer, or sales for e-cigarette use are strictly prohibited.

For anyone that wants pics of legit LG cells with that notice, put one of those sentencesinto google.
Awesome thanks for the share Station, I've tried to read it and it's near Impossible - you'd think for a safetywarning would be easily readable - another reason to think the LG aren't really LG
pgprentice said:
Hi M8,

I bought two of these based on the review you gave, have just opened one of mine and they have green cells labeled LR1865BI Can't find any info on them but I bet they are not 6Ah packs.. Found the data sheet for them. They are 1500mAh cells... http://www.all-battery.com/datasheet/30256-0_datasheet.pdf

I'm sorry you got those cells pgprentice- and thank you for taking the time to share the datasheet - possible for any photos too?
 

Korishan

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@HBPowerwall: What are you going to do after you get all the tallies/pictures together? Are you just going to post a video with the finds and recommend others to not to buy them, or something a bit more aggressive?
 

hbpowerwall

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Undecided - but if I can prove beyond a doubt I have no choice but to action it publicly
 
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