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Instant powerwall
#11
Smile Thanks. Yeah im happy with the rebuild. Since I have 17kW of solar on the roof i need to dimension the breaker to that as well Smile
BlueSwordM and wim like this post
The Ultimate DIY Solar and build place
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Current: 10kW Mpp Hybrid | 4kW PIP4048 | 2x PCM60x | 83kWh LiFePo4 | 10kWh 14s 18650 |  66*260W Poly
Upcoming: 14S 18650~30kWh | Automatic trip breakers, and alot more
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#12
(08-14-2017, 06:52 AM)daromer Wrote: Smile  Thanks. Yeah im happy with the rebuild. Since I have 17kW of solar on the roof i need to dimension the breaker to that as well Smile


Daniel, are you going to use breakers with shunt trip in the solar panel lines ?
It might be a good idea, this way it is possible to make a sort of safety master swith.... i mean one switch, a big red push button or so, to trip the breaker for the solar panels + the breaker for the battery and maybe also shuting of the inverters. Even remotly or by a fire-detector... a fireman will be happy
with such a switch.
___________________________________
18x 300Wp solar off grid and 10x 180Wp solar tracker grid-tie
10KW 3phase hybrid inverter. 40Kwh 18650 storage (for now)
My setup: https://secondlifestorage.com/t-Instant-powerwall
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#13
I have no plan to use shunt trip system for the PV side. It will only exist on the battery side and thats actually to protect the battery itself in terms of issues based on what the BMS feel. The BMS can/will also shut down the inverters if needed based on that part and adding fire sensing or heat on top is not hard either. Just not done right now.

Whats needed here in my area in terms of insurance and protection is external switches for the grid part and that exist. I have one on the outside of the building and 1 further away on incomming grid. Then it need to exist switches on PV/Battery/Grid close to the inverter and that all exist based on whats needed in Sweden.

Automatic systems is nice to have but in case of fire on the inverter side the automatic trip/shunt may not work anyways and does therefore not give any extra safety unless i go the extra mile and pay for fire proof cabinets for the switches and thats a huge huge cost. Ie for the button to work the cables to that part can not be harmed bu the fire. And if the fire isnt at the inverter side they can just flip the switches Smile


I have looked into shunt/trip switches for everything and i decided not to go that mile and only make sure Im compliant and also make sure the battery part have all switches and monitoring that is recommended. If im just going to add extra shunts to the PV + grid + load we talk about an extra 1000 EUR :/ And then the fire cabinets with install is atleast 1500-2000EUR extra last time i checked. Its cheaper to install external PV switch and just use existing external GRID/Load switch that is manual.

I rather give some extra time in making sure fire wont happen on electronics side. One simple thing is to make sure no dust will get into the inverters Smile

Hope my answer is enough and that it shows that I have given it a thought Smile
The Ultimate DIY Solar and build place
YouTube / Forum system setup / My webpage  Diy Tech & Repairs

Current: 10kW Mpp Hybrid | 4kW PIP4048 | 2x PCM60x | 83kWh LiFePo4 | 10kWh 14s 18650 |  66*260W Poly
Upcoming: 14S 18650~30kWh | Automatic trip breakers, and alot more
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#14
(08-15-2017, 05:46 PM)daromer Wrote: I have no plan to use shunt trip system for the PV side. It will only exist on the battery side and thats actually to protect the battery itself in terms of issues based on what the BMS feel.  The BMS can/will also shut down the inverters if needed based on that part and adding fire sensing or heat on top is not hard either. Just not done right now.

Whats needed here in my area in terms of insurance and protection is external switches for the grid part and that exist. I have one on the outside of the building and 1 further away on incomming grid. Then it need to exist switches on PV/Battery/Grid close to the inverter and that all exist based on whats needed in Sweden.

Automatic systems is nice to have but in case of fire on the inverter side the automatic trip/shunt may not work anyways and does therefore not give any extra safety unless i go the extra mile and pay for fire proof cabinets for the switches and thats a huge huge cost. Ie for the button to work the cables to that part can not be harmed bu the fire. And if the fire isnt at the inverter side they can just flip the switches Smile


I have looked into shunt/trip switches for everything and i decided not to go that mile and only make sure Im compliant and also make sure the battery part have all switches and monitoring that is recommended. If im just going to add extra shunts to the PV + grid + load we talk about an extra 1000 EUR :/ And then the fire cabinets with install is atleast 1500-2000EUR extra last time i checked.  Its cheaper to install external PV switch and just use existing external GRID/Load switch that is manual.

I rather give some extra time in making sure fire wont happen on electronics side. One simple thing is to make sure no dust will get into the inverters Smile

Hope my answer is enough and that it shows that I have given it a thought Smile

You do have a point there... in case of a fire in the inverter or battery cabinet, the shunts might not work... so no failsafe... Smile   smarter to stay on the road of prevention. Exclamation
Korishan likes this post
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18x 300Wp solar off grid and 10x 180Wp solar tracker grid-tie
10KW 3phase hybrid inverter. 40Kwh 18650 storage (for now)
My setup: https://secondlifestorage.com/t-Instant-powerwall
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#15
Update,

I am adding some Eltek "smart chargers", three of them, good for 90 Amp charging. Smile
I do have a small problem now, sure there was some explanation how to connect them to the bms on the Batrium website, but it is gone now.?? Huh

No problem to connect just one, but three on the same can bus? do i need to do something special or just connect them in paralel ?
A bit of help of one of the experts is  appreciated.



Thanks,
___________________________________
18x 300Wp solar off grid and 10x 180Wp solar tracker grid-tie
10KW 3phase hybrid inverter. 40Kwh 18650 storage (for now)
My setup: https://secondlifestorage.com/t-Instant-powerwall
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#16
(08-13-2017, 02:01 PM)wim Wrote: Some of the specs:

Cells: Panasonic ncr18650pf, 2900mAh
battery setup: 2 strings 90p14s, all the cells are in parralel so more of a 180p14s setup, with space to expand (with used laptop cells? Wink )
inverter: infinisolar (mpp) 48v 10kw 3phase.
bms: batrium.

So correct me if I'm wrong here, and it's entirely possible, happens regularly haha, if you were to have say 4 strings, 90p14s, like we know Peter does for example, and u simply expanded on what u currently have setup, it would basically be a 360p14s ??
I assume there would be no problems with this setup??, Basically expand at will, once you get your first 14 packs setup you could almost just add a pack at a time as u make them??. How would you go with the 4kw pip4048, parallel versions, if my assumption on how they work is correct, would you require a second bank of 14 packs setup seperatly from the first, (I assume u can't run 2 pips on the same bank of batteries) and then expand on both setups as desired??
Cause if this is the case, and I'm hoping it is, Ur design of parralling the packs like that solves a number of my problems I see arising from my plans.
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#17
Yes, you can build your wall that way by doubling the packs. However, what you need to do is make sure all your packs are balanced with each other capacity wise when doing that, and you need to do the whole 14s at once when you add another batch.
In other words, if you have 90p14s, and you built another 90p pack, you can't just parallel it with one of the 14's. You need to have a complete 14 packs to hook up. Or, at least, you should.
Otherwise, your charger is going to have a hard time keeping up with keeping everything balanced. It'll keep draining the other 13 packs to compensate for the one doubled up pack till it gets full. As the charger wants to do the whole thing at once and it'll be overcharging the other 13.
But if you put another 14 packs in parallel with the first batch, then everything is balanced across the board.

However, if you have the cells to build another 14 packs, then great! Smile No worries


This is one reason why I don't care for this design. You can't add to it easily w/o needing a whole batch of packs. I prefer the 14sXp per pack, then parallel the packs together. But that does take more configuration for the balancers as each pack would need it's own balancer for each 14s in the pack.
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#18
Yes, at the end i (hope to) have 1 string of 360p14s, it not has to be, you coud add a string with just 60p or even less and change these packs over with bigger ones when you have the cells.
So a string of 20p14s combined with a string of 90p14s is no problem.
Just keep in mind the string of 14s needs to be build with packs that are at the same or as close as possible the same capacity, as always ( also with a setup as Pete's ) the only difference is my "cells" at the end are so big the bms (longmons) need to work harder.
To make the longmon's live easier, i have them sitting in a duct with a ventilator wich turns on when balancing, just to keep them cool. Cool
Adding a pip is no problem, before or after expanding the battery capacity, the pip's need noting more than 48v, they dont care about capacity...


(08-16-2017, 04:57 PM)Korishan Wrote: Yes, you can build your wall that way by doubling the packs. However, what you need to do is make sure all your packs are balanced with each other capacity wise when doing that, and you need to do the whole 14s at once when you add another batch.
In other words, if you have 90p14s, and you built another 90p pack, you can't just parallel it with one of the 14's. You need to have a complete 14 packs to hook up. Or, at least, you should.
Otherwise, your charger is going to have a hard time keeping up with keeping everything balanced. It'll keep draining the other 13 packs to compensate for the one doubled up pack till it gets full. As the charger wants to do the whole thing at once and it'll be overcharging the other 13.
But if you put another 14 packs in parallel with the first batch, then everything is balanced across the board.

However, if you have the cells to build another 14 packs, then great!  Smile  No worries


This is one reason why I don't care for this design. You can't add to it easily w/o needing a whole batch of packs. I prefer the 14sXp per pack, then parallel the packs together. But that does take more configuration for the balancers as each pack would need it's own balancer for each 14s in the pack.

True, but a string of 14s with just 10p (140 cells) is also posible to add ( or wathever "14sXp" you like ), it just needs to be a balanced string of 14 pacs... you always need those 14 packs to make 48V, adding just 1 pack i aggree, will not work.
With a setup like Pete's the packs in a string also needs to be more or less balanced. ( correct me if i'm wrong )

It is all in the balance of things. Wink

Btw, always like to read your posts, you know your stuff. Big Grin
___________________________________
18x 300Wp solar off grid and 10x 180Wp solar tracker grid-tie
10KW 3phase hybrid inverter. 40Kwh 18650 storage (for now)
My setup: https://secondlifestorage.com/t-Instant-powerwall
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#19
I'm starting to think we're all really trapeze artists instead of battery reclamation technicians. All this balancing can get a person pretty dizzy at the end of the day Tongue
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#20
(08-16-2017, 08:05 PM)Korishan Wrote: I'm starting to think we're all really trapeze artists instead of battery reclamation technicians. All this balancing can get a person pretty dizzy at the end of the day  Tongue
Its a thin red line Smile
___________________________________
18x 300Wp solar off grid and 10x 180Wp solar tracker grid-tie
10KW 3phase hybrid inverter. 40Kwh 18650 storage (for now)
My setup: https://secondlifestorage.com/t-Instant-powerwall
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