Is it still called a POWERWALL if it's on a sailboat?

Is it still called a POWERWALLif it's on a sailboat?


So, I'm not sure what I know less about Sailing or powerwalls?

Seeing as how this is not a sailing forum,I suppose I will start in explaining my situation and then asking about building a powerwall

Iapologizefor possibly not knowing the proper terminology or explaining myself fully. I'm so green to this that I am not sure I even know the proper things to state or question?

I am hoping that I can document this process for others that may come after me or are also in the process. I also know that I need a lot of help hence the reason why I am posting here.


My wife four-year-old daughter and I are soon to be moving to a 45 foot sailboat in Florida. We plan on spending a couple few years cruising around goofing off in the Caribbean before returning back to normal life.

The boat that we are looking to buy currently has solar panels and wind generator and can also charge the lead acid battery bank via the engine. However, I am sure that we are going to want/use more energy than the existing set up has. Ideally it would be set up so that wecould run a small AC unit during the night...6000 BTU would be enough to make us content.

I believe I have settled on wanting to install a 48 V system using recycled 18650s. I'm not sure of just how big of a battery bank I am looking to have but would want to have the ability to expand it in the future. I already have purchased about4 kWh of used18650 cells made up of two different cells. 3 kW worth of 3.71s22P at 2000 maand 1 kWh of 3.71s2p atabout 2300 ma. I am sure that I will be buying a lot more.

Due to the nature of a sailboat there are many things that can create shadingon a solar panel. Due to this fact, I believe this means that I would want to set them up in a serial manner? I have also thought that multiple smaller MPPT controllers with only one solar panel attached would make the most sense?

As far as an inverter goes, I am thinking that a pure sine wave continuous 3000 W model would be the max I would need?

The boat we are in the process of purchasing has the original engine with a lot of hours on it. While it likely could run for another few thousand hours, it could also go downout a month from now. I would like to consider the possibility of installing an electric motor. That is part of my rationale for considering a 48 V system over and beyond the obvious efficiency and wiresizingadvantages

So I guess my questions are:

~Wire size?

~Cell level fuses needed?And if so what kind of amp rating?

~ What other type of monitoring would be recommended?

~ recommendations on materials used specific 2 useon a sailboat in the ocean? I would imagine everythingwill be mounted in the engine compartment?

~ The ability to plug into the system for monitoring from a tablet or PC would be very handy. Any recommendations? It would need to be a plug-and-play type of thing as the last programming that I did was using AppleSoft DOS.

~ Recommendations on acharge controller that is able to handle multiple voltage and Source inputs i.e. Solar/wind/dinosaur. Also a charge controller that is compatible with lithium and a 13s x 3.7voltage?

~ Specific Brands/voltage/wattage of solar panels recommended for a 48 V system?

~ Does one controller to one solar panel make the most sense or is there some other type of configurationI should be considering?

~ am I correct on my size of inverter given the fact that I want to run a small AC at night. In situations where navigation equipment would be being used I'm assuming we wouldn't be running the AC and vice versa.

~ Is there anything wrong with using 2.3 amp hr cellwith 2.0amp hr cells as long as I account for the lowest common denominatorin the charging parameters? I do realize that I may end up with slightly less capacity from the 2.3 that I otherwise getbut I'm less worried about that then just making use of them.

~ I love the idea of possibly just installing Tesla or similar modules Isee listed on eBay and elsewhere.Does this make sense? It seems so obvious in theory but is that also true in reality? If it feasible, does it make sense to mix them with my existing cells or should I just keep it simple and make it all Tesla?

~ any other equipment or issues that I should be taking into consideration?


I'm sure I have 1000 other questions and I'm sure t i'm sure I have 1000 other questions and I'm sure there are 1000 more questions that I am not even aware of but it's a start


Thanks in advance for any enlightenment, recommendations,comments and critique! I look forward to documenting this process as time goes on. We currently live in Arizona. Hopefully be in Florida within the next 5 to 6 weeks. I would like to think I have the system up and running by the first of the year but have been through enough to know that it's best not to set deadlines if I want to do it right.

Thank Steve

Alot of questions let me answer some with what i think:

~Wire size?
Depends on the current you going to pull out of it max. If 3kW inverter that will do 6kW max easily i would recommend 30mm2 wire from battery. And busbars i would use 6*2.5mm2 as i do myself.

~Cell level fuses needed?And if so what kind of amp rating?
I would use it. 5A normal cell fuse same as I use todya. 35Awg or around. Tinned copper wire.

~ What other type of monitoring would be recommended?
Batrium BMS

~ recommendations on materials used specific 2 useon a sailboat in the ocean? I would imagine everythingwill be mounted in the engine compartment?
Make sure its clean and protected from corrosion

~ The ability to plug into the system for monitoring from a tablet or PC would be very handy. Any recommendations? It would need to be a plug-and-play type of thing as the last programming that I did was using AppleSoft DOS.
Batrium BMS and you get monitoring

~ Recommendations on acharge controller that is able to handle multiple voltage and Source inputs i.e. Solar/wind/dinosaur. Also a charge controller that is compatible with lithium and a 13s x 3.7voltage?
First of all 14s instead of 13S and you can go lower on the cell voltages if needed. I would take 1 controller per charge source because i want extra rigidity! You are on a boat. Depending on money and size of solar the PCM60X is pretty cheap compare to what it can do.

~ Specific Brands/voltage/wattage of solar panels recommended for a 48 V system?
There are none. But Mono can be good choice since you are limited on space. You want as much watt per space you can get

~ Does one controller to one solar panel make the most sense or is there some other type of configurationI should be considering?
If you going to place them on different angles its better to have optimizers before the charge controller so you can utilize them all and gain the most out of it. yes more costly but more watt also. Cheaper way is to use diodes to save some buck.

~ am I correct on my size of inverter given the fact that I want to run a small AC at night. In situations where navigation equipment would be being used I'm assuming we wouldn't be running the AC and vice versa.
3kW should be fine as long as it can surge and start the ac while you have other loads

~ Is there anything wrong with using 2.3 amp hr cellwith 2.0amp hr cells as long as I account for the lowest common denominatorin the charging parameters? I do realize that I may end up with slightly less capacity from the 2.3 that I otherwise getbut I'm less worried about that then just making use of them.
No problem. The important thing is to have equal packs. Ie same type of cells spread among all packs in terms of capacity and IR. I use randomness and that have worked so far. Ie random from a known capacity bin among all packs.

~ I love the idea of possibly just installing Tesla or similar modules Isee listed on eBay and elsewhere.Does this make sense? It seems so obvious in theory but is that also true in reality? If it feasible, does it make sense to mix them with my existing cells or should I just keep it simple and make it all Tesla?
Dunno. Might work but sounds like more work

~ any other equipment or issues that I should be taking into consideration?

I think i mentioned all above.
Beware of that you need large breakers before every device and not just on cell level. Also make sure to case the cells inside some kind of fireproof cabinet since you once again sleap in the same vessle and live there!!

Good luck

I'm going to 2nd safety, something that can let the cells blow up and not affect the boat.

Perhaps you can call it STEVE's POWERHULL ...? Yes, please document and share with the community.

So you're basically building an off-grid system, except for the fact that it's going to be on a boat. I have some sailing experience and I've built a couple of small off-grid systems, but have never combined the two. Daniel has already comprehensively answered a lot of your questions, he and a lot of the other guys here have YouTube channels. I would recommend watching some of their build videos. Here's my 2 cents worth:

• agree with everything Daniel said

• as you are on a boat, real estate is at a premium, the panels you choose would want to give you the most Watts per sq. foot
• don't skimp on safety. There are risks with 18650s, but they can be mitigated. Strongly agree with a BMS, it's your early warning tool to alert you if something is starting to go wrong with your system. After all, it's your family's safety at stake.
• have you considered a small wind turbine mounted on the stern? If so, you may need a charge controller that can handle both solar and wind as inputs. Low noise is a priority, not Watts. Surprising how many sailboats I've seen with their turbines turned off and standing still, because their owners (and neighbours) can't put up with thenoise.
• consider the life expectancy of some of the electronic components may be reduced in a marine environment. Can this be mitigated?
• Live on-board for a week and monitor ( or try and estimate) your energy consumption, this will give an indication of what size system you need.

Enjoy the journey.

Thanks for such a quick thorough reply!


If I am starting off with aprox 4 kWh of battery capacity, What do I want for solar panels...about 1 kW? I assume I would see how well the panels are able to charge the bank and add panels/batteries as needed to maximize the system.

I am not sure I understand what optimizers are? If I followed your answer correctly, it would be

panel ---- optimizer\
\
panel ---- optimizer --|----controller
/
panel ---- optimizer /


Where does the BMS go...Is THAT what anOpimizer is?

Sooo many more questions but I will try to slow down and understand everything before opening more cans of worms and showing just how little I understand.



Would these panels be a reasonable spec for what I am wanting to do? Mono...New never installed.Found them local on craigslist forabout $170 per panel...?

---

MarkLex said:

Perhaps you can call it STEVE's POWERHULL ...? Yes, please document and share with the community.

So you're basically building an off-grid system, except for the fact that it's going to be on a boat. I have some sailing experience and I've built a couple of small off-grid systems, but have never combined the two. Daniel has already comprehensively answered a lot of your questions, he and a lot of the other guys here have YouTube channels. I would recommend watching some of their build videos. Here's my 2 cents worth:

• agree with everything Daniel said

• as you are on a boat, real estate is at a premium, the panels you choose would want to give you the most Watts per sq. foot
• don't skimp on safety. There are risks with 18650s, but they can be mitigated. Strongly agree with a BMS, it's your early warning tool to alert you if something is starting to go wrong with your system. After all, it's your family's safety at stake.
• have you considered a small wind turbine mounted on the stern? If so, you may need a charge controller that can handle both solar and wind as inputs. Low noise is a priority, not Watts. Surprising how many sailboats I've seen with their turbines turned off and standing still, because their owners (and neighbours) can't put up with thenoise.
• consider the life expectancy of some of the electronic components may be reduced in a marine environment. Can this be mitigated?
• Live on-board for a week and monitor ( or try and estimate) your energy consumption, this will give an indication of what size system you need.

Enjoy the journey.

Click to expand...

I love play on words....Powerhull it is...

I was trying to find something catchylike that and you nailed it!!! Thanks for the laugh!

Salt air is a li ion no no. I have seen too many laptop batteries exposed to ocean air. Its dangerous. Apologies if i step on anyone's toes. There is no way I would take an 18650 pack anywhere near the ocean. I work wit computers I should know. The sea should be lead acid only. Boats need to be safe. I wish I had kep photos. Metals corrode in salt air. Stick to VLRA or Gel lead acid. Li ion and salt is not a good combination

While I can't speak from any kind of personal experience and my reason for coming here was to get everyonesopinions, experience, recommendations and ideas, there are numerous Youtubers explaining why they have chosen Lithium for theirbattery bank.


https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lithium+ion+battery+sailboat

Now I do realize in just about ever case if not completely, the videos talk about commercially assembled battery packs...Is this the difference? Even though that battery banks are commercially produced, they still have terminals,connectors and other fixtures/parts exposed to the elements of a marine environment.

???

Thanks for all of the responses!

Photos? Can you elaborate? What happened?
Your normal Lead Acid battery ( the ones where you can top up the electrolyte ) I wouldn't take on-board. These need to be kept upright and level. Not good on a sailboat when sailing up wind and leaning. I'd happily go with an AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) style battery as it can be orientated in any position.
But, ANY battery chemistry subjected to a marine climate, is worse off. Yes/No?

https://www.ev-power.eu/Winston-40Ah-200Ah/WB-LYP100AHA-LiFeYPO4-3-2V-100Ah.html

I would go with them before lead acid.

You realy need to figure out your power needs.
The battery is for night.
The solar panels is for day and to charge the batteries.
You might need more panels and less batteries than you think.

cost of batterys per KW
16 18650 scrap yard
63 18650 used
96 Trojan t105
126 18650 new
200 leaf car
217 volt car
259 tesla car
387 Winston (before you think this is expensive, it lasts TWICE as long if not longer and its is direct plug and play for 12v lead acid)

MarkLex said:

Photos? Can you elaborate? What happened?
Your normal Lead Acid battery ( the ones where you can top up the electrolyte ) I wouldn't take on-board. These need to be kept upright and level. Not good on a sailboat when sailing up wind and leaning. I'd happily go with an AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) style battery as it can be orientated in any position.
But, ANY battery chemistry subjected to a marine climate, is worse off. Yes/No?

Click to expand...

Refer to my previous post

Safety first. I am a safety freak. But li ion at sea. That is not a good mix.

On a sailboat, I would try to use as many "marine" grade products as possible. For sure when going for long off shore voyage.

No way I would remove my diesel engine. The power you need to propel a 45 foot (10 to 15 ton boat) will drain your bank in no time.
When I started sailing, en e-engine was on my wishlist, but once out on open sea with heavy current and heavy weather, I appreciate my diesel more then ever.

Power supply is doable for sure, but I would never take 18650 Homebrew powerbanks on my boat. Marine grade batts for sure. Probably even Li-ion...Marine grade with closed enclosures and traditional terminals.

I will follow your project closely.

I would also recommend LiFePO4 cells. CALB, Winston or similar on the water

I recommend LiFe Y PO4 See where the y is added?
They last WAY long from the new plating on the anode

Regarding the panels. Go with Mono. Can you mount the panels flat? If not flexible can be suggestion.
You can find Mono panels that have 22% efficiency compare to 15% on Poly.

LiFe is what i would choose too . I have no clue about corrosion though so that should be considered. I do quite some diving and mostly in salt water and use Lithium battereis. No real issue if its cared for. I know a battery bank on a boat may not be taken care of in same sense but I think its doable. Cannot be compared to a laptop pack that isnt protected at all

Enought about that. Its not my area.


BMS = Battery management system. It will generaly take care of protecting against overvoltage and undervoltage including temperature and current. This is its main protection functions. Then lastly it will actively balance the pack. Thats the only thing a BMS generally does. It does not care for the charging process nor discharging.
Power optimizers is generally a device that you add on every panel. This to make sure that even though 1 panel doesnt output what it should it will not affect the other panels. For instance if you have different angles or a sail shadowing.....

Lets say you have 5 panels in series and 1 of them is shaded. If you loose 90% on that panel you actually loose 90% in total on all 5 panels (Ignore numbers since they may not reflect real life)
But basically this is what optimizers can protect against!



Marine grade i agree on as well. Salt water corode everything that isnt protected. Same can perhaps be with the aluminium frames on panels?

Well,

I hopped on ebay and amazon and ordered up a couple of cheap items so I can start goofing around with how a system works and goes together.

I did figure out what an optimizer is. I had seen the modules before and always assumed they were on all panels. I think I also thought they were microinverters. They look just like the Enphase things on my roof.

Microinverters and power optimizers are different things in the output but they kind of help with a main problem and that is shadowing

So, umm, one doesn't 'overshadow' the other, eh?

Not sure If I am going to regret this but I just picked up one of these to try...Figure I will buy a few more if they turn out to be a good path to take. Anyone have any experience with using these modules or something similar? I guess they have water cooling already integrated? Not sure how difficult that would be to tie into but might be nice.

Tesla Smart Lithium Ion 18650 EV Module - 57 Volt, 3kWh


[img=200x200]http://www.evwest.com/catalog/image...um-ion-18650-ev-module-55-volt-3kwh.jpg[/img]

OT: The day I can get such modules here where i live for a price that doesnt take one of my lounges....


Unless you going to stress the heck out of that battery pack the cooling is not needed. (Pure assumption though) And guess you wont be sailing in -20 either so heating wont be needed either.

daromer said:

OT: The day I can get such modules here where i live for a price that doesnt take one of my lounges....


Unless you going to stress the heck out of that battery pack the cooling is not needed. (Pure assumption though) And guess you wont be sailing in -20 either so heating wont be needed either.

Click to expand...

I have no idea Did I just pay way too much? Or is likely to be a dumb way of going about this project?

I don't have much money...Just happen to havebought a house at the right time and it has increasedin value. We are selling it and buying a boat that is 20% of the price of our house.This is going to be that way I get electricity rather than payinga utility company so I can rationalize spending some money. At the same time I don't want to be too stupid about wasting money.