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New Firebox Construction
#11
I'm going to use a 270 Gallon IBC tote filled with water (or at least 200 Gallons) for the thermal storage. After the fire is out, I'll still have heat in the house because of the hot water. I've removed all the compressor and condensor coils from the central air box and just retained the evap coils. And then reconfigured the ends for standard plumbing. Then while the blower fan is on, I can pump the hot water through the now radiator and continue to push hot hair into the house even when the fire has died down.
The tote will be encased in styrofoam insulation with the aluminum barrier to retain as much as possible.

That's for winter. For summer I have a pond about 30Ft from air box that I'll put some HDPE coils in so that I can pump cold water into the radiator and help cool the house during the summer.
That's also on my plate to do in the next couple months. But I have to drain the pond first and then dig out the bottom some more to put the coils in.
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#12
I hope i can chime in on this.
Now i have a little experience on this, bare in mind that i don't know anything about your climat.
I would not insulate your tote with styrofoam, but with one layer of rockwool, the firm kind, at least 2 inch.
On top of the rockwool i would use PIR insulation, at least 3 or 4 inch.
That will give you a approximate rd value of 7 to 8!
Don't be cheap on the foam, buy from illbruck FM330!

Also on all your pipes and tubes, everywhere you can expect heat loss....insulate, not the radiator of course.

For the cooling part, it is a nice thinking, but what are the water temperatures of your pond, and is the difference big enough?
Also one very big main concern from my side: condense on the radiator.

As for the water in your tote, i would replace it with oil.
Bonus: no rust, dont have to put it under pressure so much to keep the h and o toghter, no vaporizing, more mass and it can hold higher temperatures.
Downside: cost more money.

Please keep in mind also, IF you want to going to use it for shower or bathing, you really want to have temperatures above 150F, 
Also for heating the house, you don't want to many loses.
run a dubble coil in your tote for warming your water up, and maybe something to "afterheat" to get over the 150F.

As for your heating box, i would not directly heat the water but i would have some spare space between your collector/coil and fire.
Something cold in a even very hot fire will reduce the burning temperature.(and deterior your materials faster)
What if your water reaches boiling point? you got any safety? steam is pretty strong.
Oke you are not building the big boy, but also a advantage for oil, it can have very high temperatures.

For cooling your house, why not dig some pvc pipes into the ground, 2-3 foot deep, 75-100 yards would be enough to get 100m3 20F lower
No condense, no fancy stuff only a ventilator, it worked for me in my previous house.

For collecting heat for your tote, is it a option to make some heat collectors?, even evac tubes are duable to make?
Or the really easy route, simple heat collectors, use copper tubing and not any heat resistant plastic!

Sorry, just my two cents on my thoughts, hope this was helpful and give you some things to think about.
Best.
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#13
(07-22-2019, 06:29 AM)100kwh-hunter Wrote: I hope i can chime in on this.
Also looking for more positive view points and thoughts Smile

(07-22-2019, 06:29 AM)100kwh-hunter Wrote: Now i have a little experience on this, bare in mind that i don't know anything about your climat.
I would not insulate your tote with styrofoam, but with one layer of rockwool, the firm kind, at least 2 inch.
On top of the rockwool i would use PIR insulation, at least 3 or 4 inch.
That will give you a approximate rd value of 7 to 8!
Don't be cheap on the foam, buy from illbruck FM330!
I thought of foam because I can get it relatively easily around here. But I could also use batting material as well (this I can also get free from some places). I'll look into the rockwool, hadn't heard of it before

(07-22-2019, 06:29 AM)100kwh-hunter Wrote: Also on all your pipes and tubes, everywhere you can expect heat loss....insulate, not the radiator of course.

For the cooling part, it is a nice thinking, but what are the water temperatures of your pond, and is the difference big enough?
Also one very big main concern from my side: condense on the radiator.
Yes, I had already thought of insulating the pipes. I was even considering doing vacuum insulation. Basically I would have a 1-1/2" pvc pipe with a smaller 3/4" pipe inside, then vacuum each section. It's a thought at this point, but I haven't tested it for practicality yet.

Condensation on the evap coils is standard. Happens in regular A/C units as that's how dehumidifying works. So this you actually do want to help remove the extra humidity from the air.

Water temp of the pond at the bottom will be around 74*F. I can drop the temp down to about 70*F if I bury the coil in the soil as well.

(07-22-2019, 06:29 AM)100kwh-hunter Wrote: As for the water in your tote, i would replace it with oil.
Bonus: no rust, dont have to put it under pressure so much to keep the h and o toghter, no vaporizing, more mass and it can hold higher temperatures.
Downside: cost more money.
Water in this loop will be a closed loop and under low pressure, which is only created while the pump is on. When it's off, there is no pressure. As far as rust, won't have to worry about that either as everything is PVC or similar plastics. The impeller of the pump is either plastic or brass (depending on the pump head purchased)
I had thought of using oil. Yes, it is a lot most cost. Also, the pump motor would need to be beefed up to handle the higher viscosity. So I wouldn't be able to use a 1/2HP pump, but might need to go with a 1HP or even a 2HP for the extra resistance. So, it'd be a double wammy on the costs

(07-22-2019, 06:29 AM)100kwh-hunter Wrote: Please keep in mind also, IF you want to going to use it for shower or bathing, you really want to have temperatures above 150F, 
Also for heating the house, you don't want to many loses.
run a dubble coil in your tote for warming your water up, and maybe something to "afterheat" to get over the 150F.
The heat collected from the tank for the hot water would be a preheater, I doubt I'd get to 150F in the tank outside. There would be a set of copper coils to collect the heat from the tank and push into the inside electric water heater tank.

(07-22-2019, 06:29 AM)100kwh-hunter Wrote: As for your heating box, i would not directly heat the water but i would have some spare space between your collector/coil and fire.
Something cold in a even very hot fire will reduce the burning temperature.(and deterior your materials faster)
What if your water reaches boiling point? you got any safety? steam is pretty strong.
Oke you are not building the big boy, but also a advantage for oil, it can have very high temperatures.
I had thought of that, of as well. Reaching 212F is an issue. However, this can be compensated by either draining the coils if temps get too hot, or pushing faster water through the system. I haven't figured out which method to use, unless the faster flow is the first stage, and the draining is a backup/failsafe option.

(07-22-2019, 06:29 AM)100kwh-hunter Wrote: For cooling your house, why not dig some pvc pipes into the ground, 2-3 foot deep, 75-100 yards would be enough to get 100m3 20F lower
No condense, no fancy stuff only a ventilator, it worked for me in my previous house.
2 reasons here: 1) in Florida, we have to go down at least 5Ft before we get out of heated ground by the sun. 6Ft mark is about where the temps begin to stabilize around 78F. At 7Ft, the temps are stable year round at about 72F.
2) Renting a tractor/excavator isn't inexpensive. I've looked at costs of renting and they are easily in the $1500 for 2 day rental.

(07-22-2019, 06:29 AM)100kwh-hunter Wrote: For collecting heat for your tote, is it a option to make some heat collectors?, even evac tubes are duable to make?
Or the really easy route, simple heat collectors, use copper tubing and not any heat resistant plastic!
Touched on this above with the copper coils Wink

For the exchanger, I took our busted central A/C unit, cut off the section that housed the pump and electronics and such, removed the freon tubes from the evap, and soldered 1/2" connectors to it so I can run a fluid through the evap coils. This gave me the benefit of not having to build a radiator saving time and money, but also comes with fine aluminum fins that help in the transference of heat.

(07-22-2019, 06:29 AM)100kwh-hunter Wrote: Sorry, just my two cents on my thoughts, hope this was helpful and give you some things to think about.
Best.

No worries, I always look for positive thoughts of encouragement Smile Thanks for the thoughts!
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#14
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32822542114.html

I am busy with a project of my own, I think this is also something you want.
When I have some more time I will give you a more proper replay.
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#15
Okey, lets get started on one of my beloved projects, I like this very much.
First of all i don't mean anything negative, keep in mind that i am still learning English, and i don't want to insult anybody!

Those kind of project will consume more time than your average 18650 pw.

I could not figure out exactly where you are going to place your copper coils in your fire box?
If it is directly into the fire, the copper will disintegrate over time and cool off the fire, we are looking on a steam engine based system.
Why reinvent the wheel Big Grin
So the ideal position would be direct in the heating collum, not in or directly above the flame's.
You don't want to cool of a fire, but get as much heat as possible.

I also could not figure out exactly(or was reading to quick?) what material your tote was made of.
In one of your post, i understand, you want to place the tote in a insulated box, and blow the air around it instead of thru it.(we will get back on this later, how why what pro's and con's)
That would mean a lot more of heat loss.
Before i forget: styrofoam has a other downpoint insulation wise, it can attract moisture, the insolation value will go down more.
There are a lot of styrofoam products, which one do you have? maybe you have the lucky shot?


I think its more sufficient to gain more heat profit, to take one of your evap coils and submerse that into the tote.
Instead of blowing air thru a pipe thru your tote's medium.
So i think this is the ideal situation:
Your tote is completely insulated with a minimum of heat loss, the insulation is not directly pressed against the walls.
Leave a gap of ~0.5 inch? (12mm) to 1 inch between the rockwool and your totes wall.
Insulate the floor as well.

Your tote will have a minimum of 3 copper coils in it, or evap's.
First: the coil/evap to give the heat to your tote from your fire.
Second: the coil/evap to give heat to your tote from your evac tubes or other heat collectors.
Third: the coil/evap to retrieve heat and transfer that heat to your radiator.

For a system like this to work, you probably need a system working temperature of minimum 170F, preferably: 185F.
Temperatures in systems like this can easy go over 230F, that's why i suggested oil. 
In my experience and experimenting endeavors, low temp systems does not work properly, speaking frankly: below a system temp of 120F is in my opinion a waste of time.
You really need to think of heat as mass.

This winter i have a experiment that i would like to do, maybe also nice for you?
Peltier elements: hot water on one side is electricity or cold air on the other side.
In the summer turn it around, but its a experiment.

The so called low temp radiator from aluminium needs a minimum of 100F to give of some proper heat.
Now calculate your transport losses, storage losses and what the radiator must "radiate?".

My honest thoughts about your pipes, i am in doubt if you meant the pvc pipes that a electrician use, or that kind of pvc i use for my pond?
Those pipes will begin to deform at even 115F, or you meant the teflon/pe-rt type?
Tyleen is a pvc kind of plastic that can hold some higher temps, max ~180F.
I made some heat collectors with it, worked perfect, except with full sun.

When we look at water, it will segregate itself at 185F, if we go near those kind of temperatures, or make sure you can cool the system down, or put some pressure into your system.
You really want to keep the h and o together, even before it hits the boiling point.
A pump does not give any pressure, it just mass distribution.
The simplest way to give 14psi in your system is a inner tire tube in your tote, with the vent on the outside.
Make sure your system is closed! then pump up the tire.

I like this, i am looking forward for your (and others as well)reply.

Best

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#16
Korishan,

If you look on the bay, Look for ceramic fiber insulating blanket.
This will give you the protection that you are looking for. It is available in different thicknesses and widths and lengths.
Good Luck

Also,
If you go with the tote tank, I am sure there is somebody nearby building houses.
Look for insulators that are spraying, closed cell foam, the hard foam type.
This foam would work good on your tank, once you get all the holes punched in it for all your lines and fittings.
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#17
(07-23-2019, 06:41 AM)100kwh-hunter Wrote: Okey, lets get started on one of my beloved projects, I like this very much.
First of all i don't mean anything negative, keep in mind that i am still learning English, and i don't want to insult anybody!

Thanks hunter for your detailed reply. Took awhile to read it all Tongue
I'll try to answer everything in one shot:

The tote is what we call an IBC tote. It's made of a similar type of plastic that milk jugs are made of. The stuff very resilient and UV resistant. They are often used for hydro/aquaponics as well.
Google Images: IBC tote

The heat box would have the copper coils in the flue, but I was thinking of also have someone actually around the box itself. Obviously due to he corrosive nature of burning materials the coils would not be "inside" the box. I'll be getting a 50Ft roll from eBay of 3/4". Cheapest place to get it and it's of a name brand, so no chinesium here.

For the "cold" side of the system, I'd be using standard Schedule 40 PVC plumbing pipe. The hot side I'd use CPVC, which is the orangish colored plumbing. If I can get some good deals on PEX, I'll go that route instead as it can handle higher temps, is flexible, and all fittings are the same.

For heating I agree that the temps need to be above 150F to be worth it.

The radiator is required to exchange the heat/cool to send it into the house. That's how most temperature controlled systems work, even a vehicle.


(07-23-2019, 10:58 AM)Chiptosser Wrote: If you look on the bay, Look for ceramic fiber insulating blanket.
This will give you the protection that you are looking for. It is available in different thicknesses and widths and lengths.

If you go with the tote tank, I am sure there is somebody nearby building houses.
Look for insulators that are spraying, closed cell foam, the hard foam type.
This foam would work good on your tank, once you get all the holes punched in it for all your lines and fittings.

Thanks, I'll look into the ceramic blanket. And ppl around here don't build, they live in the existing house or bring in a manufactured home Tongue
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#18
@ Chiptosser,
For insulations those are very nice good thinking ideas.
But i know a thing or two about insulation.

Sinds the tote will be placed outside, it is possible that the fibers are going to be wet.
Wet insulation does nothing=heat loss
Those fibers can hold extreme heat inside for a while, but will let heat thru= loss.
It is insulation that is designed for kilns/chimne's, inside.
For a surface area, like a tote it is impractical, sorry to say.
You will not get it "damp or air closed", = heat loss.

The spray foam on buildings can be used if the temps not rising above 150-160F for a couple of hours.
The biggest bonus is: air and watertight, nothing will get in or out(3 inch minimum).
For temps in this range, you need a different set of chemicals.


I don't think they will come with that installation (55 gal drums, 200-2000psi compressor, heating) to your house for a tote, they must clean and start up the installation again.
or be prepared to spend really big.
So you must go over there, maybe in your area it will work different.
If it was here in Holland, i have 2 of those systems, one big and one small, i must have my materials back.
It just to expensive, and you must come to the construction site, rockwool and pir sheets are cheaper, overhere!

There is another solution, similar to this, you can buy smaller tanks, 1 and two components.
But before you can do it properly you already spend a tank, it looks easy, its NOT.
Make sure to use a good breathing filter, not a cheap cotton one so one that protect your eyes also.
Long sleeves, long pants and gloves is a must.
Practice on a sheet of wood.
Its like spray paint, but this expends, build it up layer for layer, half a inch wet will be 2 inch dry.
Don't wait to long to proceed, or your nozzle will be jammed

Sorry to say, clever thinking btw
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#19
Yes, you are right.
We must take one thing at the time, but at least we talked about the whole process, now its time to "tweak" the process.
I build some of this kind of systems, it is easier to expend your pw to 200kw for airco and heating, than to build a system like this, BUT
In the long run, you are way better with this system.

Your cpvc is very good to go, but go with pex, one word of warning, use the same couplers and one system.
So you will reduce the chances of leaking, and its always that coupler that is most difficult to reach....always. Angel Blush 

Your firebox and copper coils on the outside is perfect, with the ceramic insulation or cheaper and less work: vermiculite pellets, you cant go wrong, but weld a sheet over it so the moisture won't get any chance.
Pack it good full, keep 2 inch between the copper pipes, have a steady flow of 80 - 130 gallon a hour, you will be perfect.
If the water comes out with not enough heat you can always close a crane a little bit, this is easier than installing a bigger or smaller pump.
I don't think you want a sophisticated systems with sensors and such?
But the eternal match between fire, you and warming up somethings, just create a feeling for a average and leave it there.
This fire will behave different than your normal camping fire or fun fire or wood stove/place inside.

Buy two of those really cheap water temperature meters that will fit in a coupler, one for water temp in, and one for out.
A "?home heating store?" will have them in stock, i am pretty sure you know what i mean?
Make sure you have connected a 3 way valve, for if you don't have your fire running, the water will not cool off.

To have copper coils in your flue, I expect there would be some problems with it.
The smoke will cool down to much, what will give two problems alone, soot that will build up and insulate/choke your pipe (also your copper pipes) and fire hazard. You really don't want to have a fire in the flue, its worse than a 100kw pw on fire.

Cleaning the chimney.
The air draw is going to be less, due to temperature loss and the choking part.
A 15 inch pipe can clock up within 4 months, if it not catches fire!, if you use the wood stove all day and every day, if you know how to make a decent fire, without calling some indian tribes Big Grin  just saying.

Or go the extra length and make a triple walled flue.
The "outer chamber" is filled with vermiculite or ceramic blankets, the "inner chamber" would have the coil.

Part one of the "hot side" of the system
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#20
Sorry to say about your tote, i know the material, but i am not sure how it will react on a longer period of time with warm/hot water.
I suspect it will get softer, soft plastic and pressure?
Weight of the water is also pressure.
Sorry i can not give you any (good) advice on this, i am lacking some knowledge on this point.

Buy a metal tote for your heat storage, and insulate as i described before, bigger the better.
You can also go to big? it depends on how much you going to use it.
For Dutch standards 250 gallon is very good, 50 (standard on sale) is way to small for a average family.
I wish i thought of this before, i welded some 20 inch pipes.

Your plastic ibc tote would be perfect for your cold side. dig that one in without insulation, earth is mass.
You told me to rent a tractor/excavator....1500$.
Just allow your kids to build a big sand castle with basement...win win, you got rid of them for one whole year and you save 1500.
That very expensive around here, an excavator for 1500dollar/euro for two days, will get you one with a 35ft3 bucket.

The water temps in the pond also warm up, the water in my pond is at the moment 77F
The temps in the earth what is coming out is 53F(3 yard deep), from the canal (in the shade) 59F.
I cool my pond with it.
I pump water from my pond to the 2 inch pipes with a 4200 gallon a hour pump (350 watts)
600-700 yards pvc pipe.
I must stay below 75F for the sturgeons

To cool off the house, i would strongly recommend to do it with air alone.
Condensation on a radiator will give some problems, i agree that it has a dehumidifying action.
But you must catch the water, get rid of it and what about your wall behind it?
A radiator that will do cooling and do some heating, is a plumber challenge of its own.
I can help you with this, but i don't know if you would like the challenge and cost wise.
You also must have a extra ventilator because cold air will sit on the floor, hot air will rise up and will give you a "natural"pump.
A radiator on the ceiling will give you also a "natural pump" for cold air.
A dollar foolish a cent wise?

This one is really simple (for me in my situation): a 5 inch pvc pipe with a simple ventilator blowing cold air into the living room and bedroom.
The pipe have its "fresh" air from the canal that i doug in 3 yards deep.
About 170 yards long.
The earth cools it down to 50-55F.


Euh sorry, i rambled way to far, i said we would tweak the process to keep it simple, what do you mean: i like this.

Best, i hope this will help and give you also some food for your thoughts.

Hmmm...off topic...new tread?
Your ibc tote, making your own drinking water from rain or groundwater, or even your waste water, yes all 3 levels of waste water is possible, incl compost for your vegetable garden.
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