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Choice of BMS
#21
Abb s5n or s3n can be found for cheap on Ebay. Beware to look for the One with a trip coil.
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#22
(05-28-2019, 12:06 PM)Sean Wrote: You don't need the expansion if you just want to drive just the AC and DC breakers.

The Schneider trip needs to be fed with 48v +/- not much, so you'll need to use a DC - DC to ensure you don't over drive its coil at high states of charge - or use the ABB alternative which has a much wider coil voltage range, and is a fraction of the price.

The DC breaker, and compatable shunt is likely to be a very expensive item if purchased new - the Schneider or ABB breakers are intended for AC load shedding.

Regarding your mention of a 125A breaker, which I will assume will be your battery disconnect breaker - the rating of that breaker will be entirely dependent on your system design, specifically wire size, inverter rating, anticipated max current loading etc

Thanks Sean

Great news about not needing the expansion board.

You mentioned an ABB alternative trip device - do you have a model number I can use to find a compatible one to work with an ABB circuit breaker please. I'm trying to find a cheaper alternative to the Schneider ones Batrium have listed here:
https://www.batrium.com/pages/watchmon4-...-acti9mxof

I'm located in Australia so any idea of a supplier here or can I find the items on ebay?

Regarding the 125A breaker - I was referring the Schneider circuit breaker Batrium have on their website at the link above. I have a 160A breaker/isolater in between my inverter/charger and battery bank ( I previously posted photos of the current set up which I'm trying to upgrade) and I think this is sufficient.

Can you recomend any 2A and 4A fuses that are also shown in the wiring schematic linked above?

Cheers

Paul
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#23
Google ABB S200 shunt trip .... this needs to be mechanically attached to a suitable MCB for your AC load breaker, theres a few coil voltage options.

Theres probably an .au version of Radio Spares ?

https://uk.rs-online.com/mobile/p/circui...s/5383877/

The fuses can just be whatever suits your method of install, we mostly use 10x38 din rail mounted fuse holders.
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#24
(05-28-2019, 06:07 PM)daromer Wrote: Abb s5n or s3n can be found for cheap on Ebay. Beware to look for the One with a trip coil.

Thanks daromer

I'm located in Australia and the ABB breakers listed on ebay seem to be located in Australia so cost as much as a new Schneider by the time I pay for postage.

Also I'm not sure what minimum Amps the breaker needs to be? Batrium's Schneider one is 125A so do I need the same or can I go lower.
Also not sure if the ABB s5n or s3n have a built in tripping unit? I watched one of your earlier utube videos and the one you used looked as though it had everything built in.

I've found these on ebay Australia but not sure if they are compatible and if I need a seperate tripping unit:
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ABB-SACE-ISO...ctupt=true

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ABB-TMAX-XT4H25...SwzsNch0nk 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/125-Amp-Circ...SwUIxbxovi

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ABB-solar-UP...0667.m2042

Thanks for your help.
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#25
You need the right amp rating, your links are varied 35, 80, 125 & 250A?
try this one for 125A
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ABB-AC-DC-so...3288863161
shunts look like they're harder to find, maybe try these guys:
https://www.electrotraders.com.au/

Edit: found this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ABB-S2C-A1U-Shu...3534475036
please check it suits
Running off solar, DIY & electronics fan :-)
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#26
(05-29-2019, 12:13 AM)Redpacket Wrote: https://www.ebay.com/itm/ABB-S2C-A1U-Shu...3534475036
please check it suits

That'll likely suit the S200 and S800 MCBs even though it's the older style - for AC load breaking, and that's got a set of additional contacts attached.

I keep mentioning to folks that we cant be expected to recommend current ratings while not know the full system details - I suspect there's also some confusion around AC and DC breaking.

(05-29-2019, 12:13 AM)Redpacket Wrote: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ABB-AC-DC-so...3288863161

I'm very wary of top quality breakers at bargain prices - there's so many repro products around.
paulydee likes this post
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#27
(05-29-2019, 12:32 AM)Sean Wrote:
(05-29-2019, 12:13 AM)Redpacket Wrote: https://www.ebay.com/itm/ABB-S2C-A1U-Shu...3534475036
please check it suits

That'll likely suit the S200 and S800 MCBs even though it's the older style - for AC load breaking, and that's got a set of additional contacts attached.

I keep mentioning to folks that we cant be expected to recommend current ratings while not know the full system details - I suspect there's also some confusion around AC and DC breaking.

(05-29-2019, 12:13 AM)Redpacket Wrote: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ABB-AC-DC-so...3288863161

I'm very wary of top quality breakers at bargain prices - there's so many repro products around.

Thanks Sean
I've found the shunt trip here in (RS site) Australia:
https://au.rs-online.com/web/p/products/...lsrc=aw.ds

However the largest MCB I can find is this 63A:
https://au.rs-online.com/web/p/products/...lsrc=aw.ds

Do you know if they do a 125A version? What else do you need to know about my whole system to recommend current ratings? 

Also, Yes i'm confused about the difference in AC and DC breaking as the Batrium schematic of the trip and breaker here:
https://www.batrium.com/pages/watchmon4-...-acti9mxof


Doesn't show if they are on the AC or DC side of things. 

I assumed the shunt trip and Circuit Breaker would be in between the inverter/charger and battery pack (DC side) so when a critical condition trips the shunt that power to and from the inverter/charger and battery pack will not flow and the system is protected. I must admit that there doesn't seem enough room in the circuit breaker to accommodate the gauge of wire I have between the inverter and batter pack !!
Please could you clarify this situation if it's different?
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#28
(05-29-2019, 12:13 AM)Redpacket Wrote: You need the right amp rating, your links are varied 35, 80, 125 & 250A?
try this one for 125A
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ABB-AC-DC-so...3288863161
shunts look like they're harder to find, maybe try these guys:
https://www.electrotraders.com.au/

Edit: found this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ABB-S2C-A1U-Shu...3534475036
please check it suits

Thanks again Redpacket

I found what I think is the same shunt trip listed here in Australia:
https://au.rs-online.com/web/p/circuit-trips/5383877/

but not sure how to check if the ebay 125A breaker you suggested here will fit? Guess I could ask the seller or ring ABB or RS online unless you can suggest another way?

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ABB-AC-DC-so...3288863161
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#29
(05-29-2019, 07:27 AM)paulydee Wrote: Do you know if they do a 125A version? What else do you need to know about my whole system to recommend current ratings? 

Also, Yes i'm confused about the difference in AC and DC breaking as the Batrium schematic of the trip and breaker here:
https://www.batrium.com/pages/watchmon4-...-acti9mxof


Doesn't show if they are on the AC or DC side of things. 

I assumed the shunt trip and Circuit Breaker would be in between the inverter/charger and battery pack (DC side) so when a critical condition trips the shunt that power to and from the inverter/charger and battery pack will not flow and the system is protected. I must admit that there doesn't seem enough room in the circuit breaker to accommodate the gauge of wire I have between the inverter and batter pack !!
Please could you clarify this situation if it's different?

So that diagram is purely the shunt trip control part, on the DC side, not the primary battery connection to the inverter & not the AC side either.

The breakers rating should be approx =  to (the sustained DC current your inverter will pull from the batteries under full load)  x (approx 1.25 to 2.0) divided by its efficiency.
Eg between about 103A x 1.25 / 0.92% = ~139A   and   103A x 2 / 0.92% = ~221A  

Looks like you might get nuisance trips with a 125A breaker under full load or surges, probably need a 160A, 225A or 250A one. 
Then worry about the shunt trip for that.

The inverter spec should say the fuse &/or breaker size to use - follow that first, or formula above if they don't say.
I had a brief look - you'll have to dig through their *large* document range carefully.

Re AC vs DC breaking, we're talking about the primary battery connection to the inverter = DC breaking, inverter output (ie mains) = AC breaking.
Breakers need to specifically say the DC numbers or they're not suitable & AC only.

It feels like you need to keep reading & learning before launching into much, to be sure you understand things properly. 
Do you have a techy friend or electrician who can help?
There's some serious energy in these systems so mistakes can be a problem!
Running off solar, DIY & electronics fan :-)
Reply
#30
(05-28-2019, 12:06 PM)Sean Wrote: You don't need the expansion if you just want to drive just the AC and DC breakers.

The Schneider trip needs to be fed with 48v +/- not much, so you'll need to use a DC - DC to ensure you don't over drive its coil at high states of charge - or use the ABB alternative which has a much wider coil voltage range, and is a fraction of the price.

The DC breaker, and compatable shunt is likely to be a very expensive item if purchased new - the Schneider or ABB breakers are intended for AC load shedding.

Regarding your mention of a 125A breaker, which I will assume will be your battery disconnect breaker - the rating of that breaker will be entirely dependent on your system design, specifically wire size, inverter rating, anticipated max current loading etc

Hi Sean

I understand what you are saying about the Schneider trip being fed with 48v +/- so wondering if this ABB one would work if I fed it 240v from the house supply/load?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/110-to-250-V-ac...0667.m2042

and paired it with this breaker:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ABB-AC-DC-solar...SwHuhal2D4

(05-29-2019, 09:59 AM)Redpacket Wrote:
(05-29-2019, 07:27 AM)paulydee Wrote: Do you know if they do a 125A version? What else do you need to know about my whole system to recommend current ratings? 

Also, Yes i'm confused about the difference in AC and DC breaking as the Batrium schematic of the trip and breaker here:
https://www.batrium.com/pages/watchmon4-...-acti9mxof


Doesn't show if they are on the AC or DC side of things. 

I assumed the shunt trip and Circuit Breaker would be in between the inverter/charger and battery pack (DC side) so when a critical condition trips the shunt that power to and from the inverter/charger and battery pack will not flow and the system is protected. I must admit that there doesn't seem enough room in the circuit breaker to accommodate the gauge of wire I have between the inverter and batter pack !!
Please could you clarify this situation if it's different?

So that diagram is purely the shunt trip control part, on the DC side, not the primary battery connection to the inverter & not the AC side either.

The breakers rating should be approx =  to (the sustained DC current your inverter will pull from the batteries under full load)  x (approx 1.25 to 2.0) divided by its efficiency.
Eg between about 103A x 1.25 / 0.92% = ~139A   and   103A x 2 / 0.92% = ~221A  

Looks like you might get nuisance trips with a 125A breaker under full load or surges, probably need a 160A, 225A or 250A one. 
Then worry about the shunt trip for that.

The inverter spec should say the fuse &/or breaker size to use - follow that first, or formula above if they don't say.
I had a brief look - you'll have to dig through their *large* document range carefully.

Re AC vs DC breaking, we're talking about the primary battery connection to the inverter = DC breaking, inverter output (ie mains) = AC breaking.
Breakers need to specifically say the DC numbers or they're not suitable & AC only.

It feels like you need to keep reading & learning before launching into much, to be sure you understand things properly. 
Do you have a techy friend or electrician who can help?
There's some serious energy in these systems so mistakes can be a problem!
Thanks Redpacket

I agree I need to read up and learn a bit more before I put the system into operation.
I had a chat with an electrician today to he's old school and not into Lithium batteries so I'm looking for someone else and this forum for advice.
I'll have a look at the SMA SI 6.0H manual and check what breaker size they recommend and try and match a breaker and shunt to suit.
Just wondering if I can use a 110 -250v  shunt trip to get away from the 48v supply issues (Sean raised) I might encounter using a Schneider one?
Definetly want to avoid any mistakes and enjoy learning so hopefully i'll get there with a little help : )
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