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[split] New Firebox Construction (Pond loop & components discussion)
#11
Hi Korishan

Sorry I've not read every post completely apologies if this has already been in the discussion.

I've worked a few systems quite similar to what your planning over here in the UK. We tend to use a sealed system running glycol.
Something like DowFrost and DowFrost HD: DowFrost inhibited glycol-based fluid has an effective operating temperature range of -50 F to 250 F. DowFrost HD inhibited glycol-based fluid is effective from -50 F to 325 F .
We also use Tyfocor L and Tyfocor LS Pre-mixed.

Pond/lake water makes a great conductor for the transfer of heat. In summer, a pond is a great heat sink for unwanted heat. Much better than just dumping to air and and adding to the summer heat. Just dump any unwanted BTUs in your pond. During the winter the pond will release a lot of its latent heat at least until it freezes over, ice can insulate it from further heat loss. However even in a frozen pond there's still several  BTUs to be gained.  As we take heat from the pond it cools, and the earth beneath the pond begins to give up more heat into the water.

We submerge 300 ft coils of 1 1/4" PE to a depth of between 8-10 ft  Typical pond/lake size for a residential property is about 1/2 acre.
A 300 ft coil yields/dissipates around 12,000 BTUs or 3.5 kW. We tend to use a mat type heat exchanger with several loops fitted between flow and return headers.

Most systems over here tend to be coupled to heat pumps but I've seen them also without, similar to what your proposing.
Only Caution: Due to water stratification and algae growth, coil performance can be greatly affected. Normally caused by installers putting the coils into a body of water of an insufficient volume.

I'm guessing you will be more interested in heat dispersal during the summer months rather than generation during your winter weeks.
You could also dump the heat to a small thermal store prior to dispersal from the pond coils. The thermal store would then be used to preheat the cold water supply to your hot water cylinder or water heater. We also use flue gas heat recovery, this could in your case be achieved but running a copper coil up the flue stack to preheat extracting  as many BTUs as possible.
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#12
(08-04-2019, 11:45 PM)chuckp Wrote: Sorry I've not read every post completely apologies if this has already been in the discussion.
Always glad to have anothers viewpoint. And by the looks of it, experience in this case Wink

(08-04-2019, 11:45 PM)chuckp Wrote: I've worked a few systems quite similar to what your planning over here in the UK. We tend to use a sealed system running glycol.
Something like DowFrost and DowFrost HD: DowFrost inhibited glycol-based fluid has an effective operating temperature range of -50 F to 250 F. DowFrost HD inhibited glycol-based fluid is effective from -50 F to 325 F .
We also use Tyfocor L and Tyfocor LS Pre-mixed.

I had thought about Glycol, but wasn't fully sure. I'll have to look into how much it would cost to get the amount I need. The IBC totes I have were actually used for Glycol transport. In this case, the main ingredient in e-cig juice.

(08-04-2019, 11:45 PM)chuckp Wrote: Pond/lake water makes a great conductor for the transfer of heat. In summer, a pond is a great heat sink for unwanted heat. Much better than just dumping to air and and adding to the summer heat. Just dump any unwanted BTUs in your pond. During the winter the pond will release a lot of its latent heat at least until it freezes over, ice can insulate it from further heat loss. However even in a frozen pond there's still several  BTUs to be gained.  As we take heat from the pond it cools, and the earth beneath the pond begins to give up more heat into the water.

I won't have to worry about freeze over. It "rarely" gets below 0C here, and even 5C is hard to get to. If it does, it's only at night for a few hours. No where near long enough to freeze that much water.

(08-04-2019, 11:45 PM)chuckp Wrote: We submerge 300 ft coils of 1 1/4" PE to a depth of between 8-10 ft  Typical pond/lake size for a residential property is about 1/2 acre.
A 300 ft coil yields/dissipates around 12,000 BTUs or 3.5 kW. We tend to use a mat type heat exchanger with several loops fitted between flow and return headers.

I was thinking about 300Ft, looks like I guessed about the right amount. I can get a 1000Ft roll of 1-1/4 (or was it 1-1/2"?) for about $150 USD. My uncle being an irrigation guy he can get discounts at the local irrigation supply house.

(08-04-2019, 11:45 PM)chuckp Wrote: Most systems over here tend to be coupled to heat pumps but I've seen them also without, similar to what your proposing.
Only Caution: Due to water stratification and algae growth, coil performance can be greatly affected. Normally caused by installers putting the coils into a body of water of an insufficient volume.

I was actually going to put the coils under a thin layer of sand or in the clay medium that's on the bottom of my pond. There's several inches thick, maybe even close to a foot deep of clay. You think this would be more like an insulator, or work just fine?
I would also have fish and bottom feeders in the pond. So maybe this would help with any algae that may grow(?)

(08-04-2019, 11:45 PM)chuckp Wrote: I'm guessing you will be more interested in heat dispersal during the summer months rather than generation during your winter weeks.
You could also dump the heat to a small thermal store prior to dispersal from the pond coils. The thermal store would then be used to preheat the cold water supply to your hot water cylinder or water heater. We also use flue gas heat recovery, this could in your case be achieved but running a copper coil up the flue stack to preheat extracting  as many BTUs as possible.

I had thought about building a container that's about 5x5x4Ft (or 5x4x4Ft). I would put several 3x3 (or 3x2) 55 Gallon drums in the container. They'd be plumbed together with flow in through the bottom and overflow out the top to the next one on the bottom. Between the barrels would be either sand and/or small pebbles/rocks. The container would be insulated with about 4 inches of close cell styrofoam. This would become my heat storage box. While running the wood stove, I could pump water into that container to heat it up. Also, I'd have a solar trough heat collector that would also feed into it. (At this point, this is something I'd "like" to do, but may never get to this particular project, at least not at this location).
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#13
(08-04-2019, 11:45 PM)chuckp Wrote: I've worked a few systems quite similar to what your planning over here in the UK. We tend to use a sealed system running glycol.
Something like DowFrost and DowFrost HD: DowFrost inhibited glycol-based fluid has an effective operating temperature range of -50 F to 250 F. DowFrost HD inhibited glycol-based fluid is effective from -50 F to 325 F .
We also use Tyfocor L and Tyfocor LS Pre-mixed.

I had thought about Glycol, but wasn't fully sure. I'll have to look into how much it would cost to get the amount I need. The IBC totes I have were actually used for Glycol transport. In this case, the main ingredient in e-cig juice.

We normally pay between £2.00-£4.00/L depending on the quantities.

(08-04-2019, 11:45 PM)chuckp Wrote: We submerge 300 ft coils of 1 1/4" PE to a depth of between 8-10 ft  Typical pond/lake size for a residential property is about 1/2 acre.
A 300 ft coil yields/dissipates around 12,000 BTUs or 3.5 kW. We tend to use a mat type heat exchanger with several loops fitted between flow and return headers.

I was thinking about 300Ft, looks like I guessed about the right amount. I can get a 1000Ft roll of 1-1/4 (or was it 1-1/2"?) for about $150 USD. My uncle being an irrigation guy he can get discounts at the local irrigation supply house.

1 1/2" sounds better in your case, as there's no heat pump this would give you a greater surface area to dissipate heat.

(08-04-2019, 11:45 PM)chuckp Wrote: Most systems over here tend to be coupled to heat pumps but I've seen them also without, similar to what your proposing.
Only Caution: Due to water stratification and algae growth, coil performance can be greatly affected. Normally caused by installers putting the coils into a body of water of an insufficient volume.

I was actually going to put the coils under a thin layer of sand or in the clay medium that's on the bottom of my pond. There's several inches thick, maybe even close to a foot deep of clay. You think this would be more like an insulator, or work just fine?
I would also have fish and bottom feeders in the pond. So maybe this would help with any algae that may grow(?)

The coils will still dissipate the heat, but in affect you would be making them more like a ground loop rather that a pond coil, water is a much better conductor for the transfer of heat over soil but both still work well over here, the only advantage ground loops have over pond coils is when the body of water doesn't have a sufficient volume. Also the pond should be reasonably close to the propery. If the distance to the water could accommodate a horizontal field of sufficient length, the submerged loop would offer little to no advantage, as any heat dispersed into the pond would be taken up again from the warmed soil on the return pipe coming back.

Since plastic pipe is naturally buoyant even when filled, the loop, headers and service lines must be anchored in place. The loops, anchors and service lines should be assembled, leak checked and pressure tested on land. The assembly should be filled with air, and floated into place with anchor weights attached. Once in location, the system is filled with fluid and sunk into position.

Service lines must be buried from the property out into the body of water below the frost permutation line typically at a depth of around 6-10 ft. The goldilocks zone where the subterranean temperature remains constant around 45-55F all year around is what your aiming for. To shallow and the ground is heated by solar thermal energy in the summer and the flow/return pipes can absorb heat rather than disperse heat.
UK Southwest.

7 kWp Solar Panels (28 x 250Wp Shinetime Mono).
14 X APS YC500i Micro Inverters.
28 X 40P 18650 cell packs/modules configured as 14S 80P.
Sofar Mass Energy ME3000SP AC coupled charger/inverter.
Still sourcing and processing cells for powerwall.
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#14
(08-05-2019, 03:07 AM)chuckp Wrote: The coils will still dissipate the heat, but in affect you would be making them more like a ground loop rather that a pond coil, water is a much better conductor for the transfer of heat over soil but both still work well over here, the only advantage ground loops have over pond coils is when the body of water doesn't have a sufficient volume. Also the pond should be reasonably close to the propery. If the distance to the water could accommodate a horizontal field of sufficient length, the submerged loop would offer little to no advantage, as any heat dispersed into the pond would be taken up again from the warmed soil on the return pipe coming back.

Since plastic pipe is naturally buoyant even when filled, the loop, headers and service lines must be anchored in place. The loops, anchors and service lines should be assembled, leak checked and pressure tested on land. The assembly should be filled with air, and floated into place with anchor weights attached. Once in location, the system is filled with fluid and sunk into position.

Service lines must be buried from the property out into the body of water below the frost permutation line typically at a depth of around 6-10 ft. The goldilocks zone where the subterranean temperature remains constant around 45-55F all year around is what your aiming for. To shallow and the ground is heated by solar thermal energy in the summer and the flow/return pipes can absorb heat rather than disperse heat.

Makes sense. The pond is about 30Ft behind the house, so no issues there. The longest run above ground would probably be about 10Ft or less, which that'll be insulated as well.

I was going to use a continuous pipe to put down. No connectors at all except outside of the pond. I wanted to minimize any chance of leaks this way.

I won't have to worry about frost, again the temps don't get that low here. Our frost zone is <1Ft Tongue Our constant temps start about 6Ft as that's when the temps are a stable 72-74F.

But you bring good points to it all Smile
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#15
@ chuckp,
Thanks for understanding what i was trying to write down.
You hit the bullseye, i really have to keep up/learling with english.

Best Igora
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#16
For the burner the LPG tanks are way easier to use if you can borrow a plasma torch to cut the ends off, with a disc cutter oit's a pain. Welding boxes together with long welds ends up a game of heat bending distortion if the metal is thin or panel sizes are large. The sheet you have would make then end caps for the pipes.

My boiler would be non steam and just scaffold pipes packed tigether inside a LPG tank and then an end plate to hold the pipes in place and make the cylinder watertight. The pipes extending about 1cm outside of the plate at each end . Add a pipe inlet / outlet in the side with a $2 NPT threaded weld on tank adapter and you have the flow pipes.. The circulation water would then be a separate loop with water treatment in to prevent corrosion... Hot air rising up through the pipes, water cisrulates the LPG tank around the pipes. Lower LPG hot tank is then allowed to heat up properly (cherry red sides) so the combustion allows for virtually anything to get burnt without toxic fumes.

My LPG tanks are 5ft tall and about 1.5ft wide, when filling with water I was flaming off the vented gas (about 8ft at one point !) with a fill to pressure, release and then fill more, release. Could not drill a hole in one end until full.

Separate point, the lower active burner cylinder can be wrapped with some insulation only if you don't use coal or high hydrogen content fuel. The reason being is that with wood you can get a good heat from large lumps that are dry and they will not burn that hot, throw coal in and with a little additional airflow you would end up with the lower part of the tanks melting.

I like the idea of using large dry lumps of wood as they would burn longer (less loading time) and are way less hassle to prepare unless your training for the onlympics (spend an hour with a splitting maul and knotted wood)...

The lower section of the cylinger cut several holes about 1.5in in diameter to allow air in and ash out (with the final assitance of a poking stick !)

The lower cylinder has to get hot enough to allow large lumps to burn well and if the lower section is wrapped with a copper coil it may prevent the fire from getting hot enough and end up with sooting issues or the fire goes out if the wood is not very dry.
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#17
Just remembered, after forgetting a few times...

For nitrate free water... in the summer just redirect the AC condensation flow into an IBC... just as good, if not better than rainwater as it has not flowed over the roof.
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#18
Or collected dirt from the air falling through it Wink
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#19
Nitrate free water: I think it is NO2 and/or NO3, that's also in rain water.
Not much but enough to form algaes.
Distilled water from your AC condensation is indeed free of NO2 and 3, that would be my first choice.
It will take some time
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#20
At this stage, I think boiling the tap/ground water and then condensing it using copper coils into another container would be the way to go here. My ground water is high in calcium, low in iron content. Which is great for needing bone strength, and nice that it helps keep lightning from hitting so close to us on a regular basis (it strikes a lot around our property during t-storms).

I've been running this water on my A/C window unit's coils for almost 2 years now, and there's very little calcium (lime) build up on them. So I'm not even worried about build up over time even if I don't distill the water.
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