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BMS integration to Victron + system design
#11
Huh? Not sure what ur question is about? Do you need to have Them 100% synced? They Will balance when needed. Andif cells are above threshold they Will all start to bleed off and you get the full current
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#12
(08-15-2019, 11:06 AM)daromer Wrote: Huh? Not sure what ur question is about? Do you need to have Them 100% synced? They Will balance when needed. Andif cells are above threshold they Will all start to bleed off and you get the full current

..... in reality, only one mon starts bypassing (the one with the lowest turn on voltage) - if you dont limit current when in bypass, and actively cool, multiple mons is ok, but the few fractions of a volt difference in their calibration and no ability to sync all mons makes this a somewhat impractical and expensive configuration.

If all cells are above the bypass voltage then yes they'll all go into bypass immediately, but again the slight difference in calibration will see them all coming off bypass a few fractions of a voltage apart.

Jaron did hint at enabling user calibration of mons ages ago, which would have made multiple mons on the same cell a more usable setup.
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#13
Not sure it would be a problem. IF you need more than 1 mon to balance the they Will turn on One after another. Think of it going 1a then 2a.
I have used it like that for testing and i know other doing it without issues.

As Said i dont see the issue with it
The Ultimate DIY Solar and build place
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Current: 10kW Mpp Hybrid | 4kW PIP4048 | 2x PCM60x | 83kWh LiFePo4 | 10kWh 14s 18650 |  66*260W Poly
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#14
(08-15-2019, 11:30 AM)daromer Wrote: As Said i dont see the issue with it

Who is using multiple mons on the same cell to increase the bypass current ?
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#15
(08-15-2019, 11:26 AM)Sean Wrote:
(08-15-2019, 11:06 AM)daromer Wrote: Huh? Not sure what ur question is about? Do you need to have Them 100% synced? They Will balance when needed. Andif cells are above threshold they Will all start to bleed off and you get the full current

..... in reality, only one mon starts bypassing (the one with the lowest turn on voltage) - if you dont limit current when in bypass, and actively cool, multiple mons is ok, but the few fractions of a volt difference in their calibration and no ability to sync all mons makes this a somewhat impractical and expensive configuration.

If all cells are above the bypass voltage then yes they'll all go into bypass immediately, but again the slight difference in calibration will see them all coming off bypass a few fractions of a voltage apart.

Jaron did hint at enabling user calibration of mons ages ago, which would have made multiple mons on the same cell a more usable setup.

It would be nice if there was a sync socket on the mons so if you wanted to stack them up, you would just need to connect a sync cable between them
Sean likes this post
Current system: 9.6kWh wet Nicad batteries, 16S1P Calb LiFePo4 210aH, Batrium WM4, Outback vfx3048 inverter, mx60 mppt controller, flexware 500 mounting hardware, 2.4kW solar array, 6kW lister diesel genset. MY'13 Vauxhall Ampera
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#16
HugF You just connect them in series and sync them in software. Yes you would see more longmons as such and each 2 that is on same basically give you the same values. The part showing the multiple longmons though can for some people yield a disadvantage of course.

Sean why is it relevant to give you name on people who have done it? As I said: Its more then possible to run multiple longmons to increase the continues balancing capacity.
The Ultimate DIY Solar and build place
YouTube / Forum system setup / My webpage  Diy Tech & Repairs

Current: 10kW Mpp Hybrid | 4kW PIP4048 | 2x PCM60x | 83kWh LiFePo4 | 10kWh 14s 18650 |  66*260W Poly
Upcoming: 14S 18650~30kWh | Automatic trip breakers, and alot more
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#17
(08-15-2019, 02:10 PM)daromer Wrote: HugF You just connect them in series and sync them in software. Yes you would see more longmons as such and each 2 that is on same basically give you the same values. The part showing the multiple longmons though can for some people yield a disadvantage of course.

Sean why is it relevant to give you name on people who have done it?  As I said: Its more then possible to run multiple longmons to increase the continues balancing capacity.
A sync cable would be more logical. You wouldn't need to have them display as a separate mon in the chart...
Current system: 9.6kWh wet Nicad batteries, 16S1P Calb LiFePo4 210aH, Batrium WM4, Outback vfx3048 inverter, mx60 mppt controller, flexware 500 mounting hardware, 2.4kW solar array, 6kW lister diesel genset. MY'13 Vauxhall Ampera
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#18
Since they are separate units totally i dont see the reason. If so it would be better to group them in the UI. You still want the data from each mon so you know they all work as intended. With that said its all about how they are designed and I prefer how they are currently designed.

With that said I dont see any real life setup where you would really need higher balancing than 1 mon can provide Smile Since i rather have separate battery banks.
The Ultimate DIY Solar and build place
YouTube / Forum system setup / My webpage  Diy Tech & Repairs

Current: 10kW Mpp Hybrid | 4kW PIP4048 | 2x PCM60x | 83kWh LiFePo4 | 10kWh 14s 18650 |  66*260W Poly
Upcoming: 14S 18650~30kWh | Automatic trip breakers, and alot more
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#19
(08-14-2019, 10:01 PM)Jon Wrote: Victron is a well proven provider, I’ve used their products in commercial remote installs, not with a Batrium BMS though.

My home system which is under construction is using a Victron Multiplus, Victron Venus and Batrium Watchmon 4.

Batrium has information on configuration settings to communicate with the Venus.

I don’t have proven results with the combination yet though sorry.


Jon, Looks like we are looking into similar setups Smile
Thank you for chiming in.


(08-14-2019, 10:38 PM)Sean Wrote: Victron (Venus device running ESS, Multiplus, MPPT, energy metering etc etc ) & Batrium or REC work well .

But - dont expect to be able to use the full bypass current of either without additional cooling (a well built battery won't require much balancing), dont expect to be able to configure such a system with negligible prior knowledge, any existing grid tired installation using a inverter that supports frequency shift control can be simply integrated, dont assume 14s normally 48v is the correct battery string configuration (build the battery based on your inverter/chargers), dont under estimate the cost of fusing/protection.

REC support is superb and very quick - Batrium support seems to still be as you'd expect from a very small company - rightly so, both companies assume some competence.


Sean, this is solid advice. 
I am indeed a newbie to this area. But I do have a lot of experience in 12VDC from a decade's building and designing car audio applications (some of which have carried battery packs >1000Ah, fused far beyond 1000A). I've balanced and assembled packs of super capacitors with balancing circuits. Some of the skills learned I expect to carry over to some extent, like cable sizing calculations and fusing practices. 
Anyways, I put this out there to let you guys have an idea where I come from.

Thank you for confirming my concerns regarding charge voltage. I've identified this issue. The MultiPlus 48's charging property from the spec sheet (although it is reducable in settings AFAIK), is 57.6V Absorption, 55.2V Float, 52.8V Storage mode. 
Quick calculation showed this might be problematic. Here is how:

The Winston 260-400Ah Cells are specified to a operating voltage 3.8V - 2.8V (80% DOD). Recommended charging at 3.65V per cell.
For the curious: https://www.ev-power.eu/Winston-40Ah-200Ah/

Quickly noting (3.65 charging volt):
16S: 58.4V <<< too high
15S: 54.75V << within range for the Multiplus
Even at a charge voltage of 3.8V, the 15S is still applicable (57.0V).

(08-14-2019, 11:21 PM)completelycharged Wrote: "SolarEdge SE9K three phase AC coupled interver"

I anticipate you're indicating that the Multiplus alone are a single phase module which potentially would cause problems?
Actually, this is a supported configuration when running ESS (Energy Storage System assistant).

https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ess:design-installation-manual#single_phase_ess_in_a_three-phase_system
ESS also would require 3 phase like: https://www.victronenergy.com/accessories/energy-meter#pd-nav-secondimage

I've been asking suppliers of inverter/charger solution that would be capable of running three phase AND not being locked into a ecosystem of a Plug n' Play battery solution which comes in at approx 5-6kWh for the same price that I'd be able to build an approximately doubled size battery bank. So far, no other model has been available. 

That's one reason I've come to stick with the idea of Victron.
Another is the potential future integration with Node-Red that is in the makings..

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[url=https://www.victronenergy.com/accessories/energy-meter#pd-nav-secondimage]C
heers!
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#20
(08-15-2019, 03:00 PM)daromer Wrote: With that said I dont see any real life setup where you would really need higher balancing than 1 mon can provide Smile

I agree, but you previously mentioned on this thread that others are using multiple mons to achieve a higher bypass current, I assume with success, who are they ?

@Dewki - have a really close look at the max/min settings for bulk/absorb etc before you finally commit to string length - max bulk on the MPII 48v is actually 64v, as per the larger MPPTs such as the 250/100 - which suits a 16s string with a max cell voltage of 4v perfectly - obviously chemistry dependent - I cant recall the min but its helpfully very low.

Single phase ESS on a multiphase supply works very well, it's very well supported - we have some Schneider equipment arriving shortly that also perform well which you might want to add to your list for consideration.

Node Red has been with Venus for a couple of releases.

https://github.com/victronenergy/node-re...ib-victron
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