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Advice on GTIL Inverter
#11
(08-19-2019, 06:54 AM)ajw22 Wrote: There are other GTI with limiters, so just to make sure that we're talking about the same devices:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076KBCHBM/ref...wDb4B6HZ3C
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ajw22,
Very well explained!
If we are talking about the GTIL2. as you have linked above.
I run 2 of them each on their own 120v leg and working just great!!.

Sandiegomaxim,
The theoretical max wattage you should be able to get out of a single GTIL2 is 1000W but that as far as I can determine is more like a max of 850W to 900W. 
Now that being said I do run my system off of a 48v nominal battery bank and I have heard that if you do that the wattage is throttled a bit. The drawing you saw originally was me hooking up a single GTIL2 1000 to my 240 split phase panel. My L1 and L2 feeds where not very well balanced (30%/70%) so I was always slightly backfeeding the grid. You can find that discussion with graphs and charts in the https://secondlifestorage.com/t-External...4#pid51964 thread.

Now in your original post you stated that 1 leg uses 1000W to 1200W consistently throughout the working day.
In your case I would hook a GTIL2 1000 to that 1 leg and depending on your Panel production you will probably shave 800W to 950W off of your grid consumption. 
In my case I bought another GTIL2 1000 moved 1 circuit breaker and balanced my loads between L1 and L2 to a much better level.
so I have 1 GTIL feeding L1 and 1 GTIL feeding L2 .
Are you sure you cannot move 1 or 2 circuit breakers  to balance your load? Then you could have 2 GTIL 1000 and basically run the shop during the day without much grid interaction. Well as long as the sun is out and in San Diego I would imagine that that is most of the time.

Here is my solar production yesterday it was a pretty cloudy day most of the day and the AC was on as it was warm and humid.
Nice stretch from about 9AM to 5:30PM without much grid usage.


On a separate note I don't want to step on anyone's toes but I would not use the GTIL 2000 as it is 240V only and in your case would cause a serious backfeed problem. Especially if you did not change your L1 and L2 imbalance.
Wolf
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If 18 X 650 = 2200+mAh then we have power! 
May all your Cells have an IR of 75mΩ or less Smile
Last count as of 8/7/2019
Total Number of Cells Recorded and processed                 6149
Total Cells required for PowIRwall                                   2856
Total Cells ≥2200mAh, ≥80%, ≥35mΩ, ≤75mΩ, ≥4.12V   2760
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#12
Agreed with wolf, do not use 240v version if legs are badly unbalanced in main panel

Ajw22 read my last comment on external limiting. It explains what actually happens at 240v using the gtil2 and dual clamps

It does not backfeed on 1 leg and underfeed other...it actually sees it would backfeed and just throttles down to not do so..but then not fully supplying one leg therefor letting the grid supply the unfed power...read my last text in blue on the external limiting post, I was talking to someone on messenger when I figured this out so I just took a pic and put it on here

Using a 120v inverter on each leg and batteries avoids all that but there is losses using batteries and batteries last maybe 10yrs so a lot of added cost to bottom line, some saving only 40 a month like some ppl do when having 2 120v inverters it’d take a long time to get your investment back to actually start saving.where as I have 2 240v inverters supplying both legs with 4kw pv (2 2kw arrays) that cost me 4K total for the entire setup and will recoup that cost in less than 4 yrs. If batteries aren’t used and 120v inverter wired to one leg then panels connected to that inverter can’t help other leg so loses there aswell

So if it is understood that the 240v inverter does not backfeed but rather throttles down to not backfeed on the one leg therefor underfeeding the other leg,,,the amount underfed is what the inverters show being supplied by grid when inverters are supplying all of loads but letting grid supply aswell. Which isn’t many watts as long as main panel is fairly balanced. Single phase gtil can backfeed with limiter installed if main panels legs loads are more than 30% different. The amount the grid is supplying (over time) can be chalked up to the cost of a setup that had batteries. But not having to have to deal with batteries,,balancing (more so with lithium) gassing (more so with lead acid) maintenance and having to replace in 10 yrs if they make it that long....
Edison batteries are better cuz they last forever and balancing isn’t an issue but a lot of upfront cost..
On the other hand if someone wants offgrid capabilities they need batteries regardless
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#13
(08-19-2019, 02:12 PM)Doin it Wrote: Using a 120v inverter on each leg and batteries avoids all that but there is losses using batteries and batteries last max of 10yrs so a lot of added cost to bottom line, some saving only 40 a month like some ppl do when having 2 120v inverters it’d take a long time to get your investment back to actually start saving.where as I have 2 240v inverters supplying both legs with 4kw pv (2 2kw arrays) that cost me 4K total and will recoup that cost in less than 4 yrs. If batteries aren’t used and 120v inverter wired  to one leg then panels connected to that inverter can’t help other leg so loses there aswell

All very true, here comes the but.

But, a lot of us here are into reusing a product that gets thrown out and we try to recycle.
Partially because we are environmentally conscious and we are Amateur ("Amateur" definition, a person who engages in a study, sport, or other activity for pleasure rather than for financial benefit or professional reasons) tinkerers that need something to do with our spare time and keep our brains sharp. Will I ever recoup my investment probably not. But the money I used to spend on alcohol was wasted also as it was flushed into the sewer system after consuming it. There was no return on investment whatsoever other than a bad headache. Confused

The batteries in my case are of a twofold use. They buffer my solar production for my GTIL but also are a standby for my full fledged split phase inverter in case the power goes out. With my battery bank I have at least 5 hrs of emergency power till I have to fire up my gas generator.
With my 18650 Li-Ion battery bank I want to increase that to at least 24 hrs if not 48 hrs.
So all in all yea I have a lot of money invested but that is not the criteria most of us, at least I believe, most of us are here for.

I think most of us are here to construct something that we can be proud of, is a useful project for the environment and when the neighbors come over and see what we have done they just uhh and ahh. Wow that is awesome etc.

Wolf
If 18 X 650 = 2200+mAh then we have power! 
May all your Cells have an IR of 75mΩ or less Smile
Last count as of 8/7/2019
Total Number of Cells Recorded and processed                 6149
Total Cells required for PowIRwall                                   2856
Total Cells ≥2200mAh, ≥80%, ≥35mΩ, ≤75mΩ, ≥4.12V   2760
For Info Google Drive
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#14
Lol wolf yeah I guess so...I just added in above comment that ppl need batteries if they want offgriid...for me tho it’s all about making that electric bill low as possible for as little money as possible and getting the cost of the system recouped quick as possible...I do like the ohhhs and ahhhs aswell tho.
Also there seems to be new battery technology coming to light in the near future..liquid metal batteries have made advancements and a few others
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#15
is it extream or normal wiring for GTIL2? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SeTJhAfdgE&t=1311s



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#16
I am all for safety but that is a little over the top I think.

I have 1 breaker on the DC side 50 Amp and I have 2 breaker on the AC side 20 Amp X2. 1 each for L1 and L2
As I am using 2 GTIL and I have them hooked to my battery that get charged from my solar I have them throttled to 950 Watts each.
They both rarely go that high (1900 Watts ~40 Amps depending on voltage) and if, for a very short time. 
The on and off timer eh it's not a bad idea but then again running on batteries I don't know when the cutoff voltage to put the GTIL to sleep will happen. Also I don't know what kind of weather cloudy, full sun , partly cloudy etc I will have during the day. The GTIL does a great job in regulating itself using the resources it has to produce as much power as it can.
All this is programmable on the GTIL.
I have the go to sleep voltage set to 49.5 volts and the wakeup (reboot) voltage at 54 volts.
Essentially what happens is the batteries will get charged in the AM and when they hit 54 volts the GTIL will wake up and start to produce power.
Actually they start at ~53.5 volts just to wake up and go full bore at 54 volts
The GTIL will use whatever is necessary to feed the house and the excess from the panels will continue to charge the batteries. 
When the sun starts to go away the battery will supply the GTIL till the battery voltage gets to ~50 volts and throttle themselves down slowly till 49.5V at which point they go to sleep drawing ~170mA from my battery.
I don't like to shock electronic systems with full on and full off scenarios. I know for a fact that when you hook the GTIL to a battery there is a quick inrush of power to charge the primary capacitors and it is quite a spark. That wouldn't happen with a solar array per say if you turn it on in the early AM but turn that breaker on midday there will be some arcking especially the DC side.

So safety yes but there can be overkill.
Surge protection sure but we don't live in the Philippines and certainly don't generally have daily thunderstorms and an unpredictable grid.

Just my view IMHO

Wolf
If 18 X 650 = 2200+mAh then we have power! 
May all your Cells have an IR of 75mΩ or less Smile
Last count as of 8/7/2019
Total Number of Cells Recorded and processed                 6149
Total Cells required for PowIRwall                                   2856
Total Cells ≥2200mAh, ≥80%, ≥35mΩ, ≤75mΩ, ≥4.12V   2760
For Info Google Drive
Not your average Wolf       
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#17
(08-19-2019, 08:28 PM)Wolf Wrote: I am all for safety but that is a little over the top I think.

Please look at this diagram, did I set everything correctly or am I mistaken? 
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#18
(08-20-2019, 01:52 AM)SanDiegoMaxim Wrote:
(08-19-2019, 08:28 PM)Wolf Wrote: I am all for safety but that is a little over the top I think.

Please look at this diagram, did I set everything correctly or am I mistaken? 

If you are going to go with all that then yes it looks OK as long as the "red" wire is hooked to a breaker that is supplied by the leg you are monitoring with the CT from the GTIL.


Disclaimer
I am not a licensed electrician I just play one on TV.

Wolf
If 18 X 650 = 2200+mAh then we have power! 
May all your Cells have an IR of 75mΩ or less Smile
Last count as of 8/7/2019
Total Number of Cells Recorded and processed                 6149
Total Cells required for PowIRwall                                   2856
Total Cells ≥2200mAh, ≥80%, ≥35mΩ, ≤75mΩ, ≥4.12V   2760
For Info Google Drive
Not your average Wolf       
            Cool
Reply
#19
Hey wolf, what would u recommend to monitor my home usage and solar production..I seen u use iotawatt... would u still recommend that..I’m not very tech savvy. I’d like something easy that I could monitor on my iPad. The iotawatt seems to plug into a 120 outlet but I see other devices that actually get wired to a 240v breaker as to see individual voltage difference between the phases.
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#20
(08-20-2019, 02:03 AM)Wolf Wrote: Wolf

I saw, that some installed 4 GTIL2 in one house. is it possible to put several GTIL2 on one phase L1? 
Is it possible to install 2 or 3 invertors without a limiter to grid?
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