PIP-5048GK standby usage

wimpie007

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Joined
Apr 8, 2017
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81
Hi everyone!

I've had my system up and running since august 2019, initally with 10* 280 Wp panels and 7 kWh of storage (14S60P, 136 Ah).
After adding the second set of packs to get 14 kWh (14S120P) and another 2 panels to better match the MPPT startup voltage of the PIP5048-GK, I'm a bit let down by the overall performance.

It seems like the PIP's own power usage is around 65 - 75 Watt, which accounts to about 1,5 kWh of losses each day.
On these winter days, I find myself charging up the batteries with grid power, only to burn it again in heat losses.
It seems I'd better disconnect the batteries after they're charged up, to avoid them going too low from the inverter's drain.

But even if I disconnect the batteries, the 65 - 75 W needed would just come from the grid (in by-pass mode).
It seems like a terrible waste of grid power now, but a shame if I have to bypass the entire setup during winter months to avoid these losses.
As it is now, I'm consuming MORE grid power than before I added my powerwall + solar.

Is this "normal behaviour"?
 
Yes it is just normal. You get what you pay for.

The cheapest versions of the MPP is around 40W at 48v systems. All grid-tie/hybrid is up towards 80W per phase.
For instance my 10kW inverter is consuming 240W idle... Doesnt matter if you disconnect the battery. You need to shut it down to not pull anything.

I say this EVERY time someone asks about the "Cheap" MPP gear and still it seems people miss it :)

There is 1 easy sollution: Sell it and buy a Victron or other name-brand system and you can easily cut that usage in half to 1/3rd :)

Yes I would like to do that do but the other name-brands cost alot more. So Il stick with mine and i actually disable the inverter during hours when theres no sun in the winter. It saves me up to 7kWh per day :p
 
That's normal for me as well. It all depends on the placement of your panels (winters require a very high angle which roofs don't usually get) and your area. You just have to weigh in the entire month's average. If all you have is extremely cloudy days, then turn it off. During winters I still net overall a positive so I leave it on.

If you're willing to do extra work to maximize your output, then if you have a manual transfer switch, shift the load to your grid. Then turn off the inverter portion of the PIP and leave the solar charger on. That way your idle drops down to around 15W, which then leaves your battery charging via solar until it reaches 100%. Then turn the inverter back on and flip to battery until it is depleted and repeat the process.
 
wimpie007 said:
Hi everyone!

I've had my system up and running since august 2019, initally with 10* 280 Wp panels and 7 kWh of storage (14S60P, 136 Ah).
After adding the second set of packs to get 14 kWh (14S120P) and another 2 panels to better match the MPPT startup voltage of the PIP5048-GK, I'm a bit let down by the overall performance.

It seems like the PIP's own power usage is around 65 - 75 Watt, which accounts to about 1,5 kWh of losses each day.
On these winter days, I find myself charging up the batteries with grid power, only to burn it again in heat losses.
It seems I'd better disconnect the batteries after they're charged up, to avoid them going too low from the inverter's drain.

But even if I disconnect the batteries, the 65 - 75 W needed would just come from the grid (in by-pass mode).
It seems like a terrible waste of grid power now, but a shame if I have to bypass the entire setup during winter months to avoid these losses.
As it is now, I'm consuming MORE grid power than before I added my powerwall + solar.

Is this "normal behaviour"?

How are your panels configured? All in series? Or two strings in parallel? Just for me not because of your problem. But I will maybe have the same problem. Quite the same setup...
 
I had 10 panels in series, but I often noticed that the PV voltage would be around 120 Volts, which is too low for the MPPT tracker to start up (if I have to go by the manual).
I had the opportunity get 2 more of the same panels, so the voltage coming from the panels should be 20% higher.
It still shows voltages around 120 V, but the batrium shunt measures current coming into the batteries. So while the PIP doesn't show PV Watt output, there is some, though only about 130 W (75 W standby usage of the PIP5048-GK and 55 W going to the battery pack)

image_niypjs.jpg


Regarding the usage of the inverter, I'll add a button to by-pass the setup entirely so I can shut it down on the darkest days of the year.
Upgrading to the Victron as Daromer suggested is a plan for later on. I'm hoping I can get some savings on my power bill when using the MPP Solar first.
 
Wimpie what's the VMPP of your solar panels? Or better what panels do you use? Do you have a datasheet?

Very strange that you don't see anything in PIP Software. Is that usual to it?
 
Look in the victron shelf... they do it for much less standby consumption... theyve got some cheaper solutions recently...
 
not2bme said:
If you're willing to do extra work to maximize your output, then if you have a manual transfer switch, shift the load to your grid. Then turn off the inverter portion of the PIP and leave the solar charger on. That way your idle drops down to around 15W, which then leaves your battery charging via solar until it reaches 100%. Then turn the inverter back on and flip to battery until it is depleted and repeat the process.

Is this possible with automation ? I mean can one control the inverter and all the settings using some kind of API if so it would be easy to monitor then disable based on different parameters and if one could control a transfer switch at the same time then it would be automatic.
 
I hvae not seen that on off exist in their protocol but feel free to double check

You can Always automate itm just a matter om how
 
daromer said:
I hvae not seen that on off exist in their protocol but feel free to double check

You can Always automate itm just a matter om how

Do you know where i can find the protocol described or is it described at all ? I guess if it's not in the protocol you can't automate just to turn off the inverter and keep the MPPT charger running as was mentioned before or ? Are there ATS that can be automated ? I know you have looked at few switches, have you found one that can be automated ?
 
All switches can be automated with proper hardware around it.

I think you can find parts of it here: http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?t=4332
Though i guess some changes have been done towards the GK model.

I dont own any PIP any more and was some years i did play around with it as well. I dont evem remember how to turn of the inverter leaving mppt running? :D

With automation if you solve above i can help. You can for instance easily do it with Node Red and a raspberry pi to controll it all
 
daromer said:
All switches can be automated with proper hardware around it.

I think you can find parts of it here: http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?t=4332
Though i guess some changes have been done towards the GK model.

I dont own any PIP any more and was some years i did play around with it as well. I dont evem remember how to turn of the inverter leaving mppt running? :D

With automation if you solve above i can help. You can for instance easily do it with Node Red and a raspberry pi to controll it all

Yes i guess you can always make mechanical switches automated by using some automated mechanical servo or something like that. I don't own a PIP either but i am in the process of deciding to get Victron or the MPP 5048 MK. I know alot about automation, it's just what's possible. I will open a separate thread about Victron ;)
 
Go victron i useage is an issue. You also get better support and warranty
 
Maniac_Powerwall said:
Wimpie what's the VMPP of your solar panels? Or better what panels do you use? Do you have a datasheet?

Very strange that you don't see anything in PIP Software. Is that usual to it?

Hi, sorry for being super-late in replying!
I have the Canadian Solar CS6K-280P panels, 12 of them. Vmmp is 31,3 V per panel so times 12 gives 375,6 V which suits the "high PV Volt" input of the PIP 5048-GK.
At 120 V (which is the charger start-up voltage) it shows no Amps or Watts coming from the solar panels, but it does reduce the power flowing from the batteries to the inverter.
When it actually starts converting a decent amount of power it is shown in the watchpower screen, so no issue there.

I'll look into switching out the MPP solar for a Victron inverter in the coming months or I might put the powerwall setup "on hold" for now (based on some local incentives for solar installations changing from 2021 onwards). :huh:
We'll see what the future brings.

not2bme said:
That's normal for me as well. It all depends on the placement of your panels (winters require a very high angle which roofs don't usually get) and your area. You just have to weigh in the entire month's average. If all you have is extremely cloudy days, then turn it off. During winters I still net overall a positive so I leave it on.

If you're willing to do extra work to maximize your output, then if you have a manual transfer switch, shift the load to your grid. Then turn off the inverter portion of the PIP and leave the solar charger on. That way your idle drops down to around 15W, which then leaves your battery charging via solar until it reaches 100%. Then turn the inverter back on and flip to battery until it is depleted and repeat the process.
Hey not2bme, how did you achieve to put the inverter portion of the PIP off?
 
After testing some stuff out myself, it seems that shutting down the inverter with the On/off button on the display panel puts it into 'standby mode'.
This does allow solar to charge the batteries but provides no AC output. Exactly what I was looking for. I've installed a (manual) transfer switch in my main switchboard to get the loads back on grid power if needed. Since it's been pretty miserable weather for weeks now, that comes in handy!
 
Wim, that's why I choose for a separate charger. Use the PCM60X to charge the batteries. If there's not much sun I switch off the inverter, the ATS switches to grid.
We live in same country so I know how low the input during these winter months is. Now production is ramping up. DEC & JAN I used 30kwh, FEB 80Kwh.
Last week I added an extra 8 kwh and already used 20kwh this month and we're only 4th of March.

P.S. the standby function didn't worked for me. I have some small loads of few watts for powermeter and that tripped the inverter to leave the STBY function. Glad it worked out for you.
 
Franky,

I simply powered the inverter part off with the button on the front panel. I was pleasantly surprised that the charger part still worked in this use case.

All these changes make the process quite complex, yet still leave some issues unanswered. I'll be switching my setup to a regular grid-tied solar setup (for now).
 
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