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Outback charge controller not using all of the arrays volts
#21
(06-02-2020, 02:13 PM)Doin it Wrote: It says hyper voc gives u the option to go up to (PANEL VOLTAGE) the max operating voltage (150v) PLUS the battery voltage.  So essentially array can be 150v plus battery voltage only while using hyper voc.....
that sentence is saying without hyper voc (which my outback doesn’t have) u do not have the option to go up to max operating voltage because u have to minus the battery voltage from the max the controller can accept...


U can still use arrays up to 150v and controller will still function but it will mppt the voltage down to whatever is left from 150v once battery voltage is subtracted from 150v..

Anybody else reading it that way?
NO  talks only of adding the battery nominal voltage to the max controller voltage to prevent damage to the controller. ie a midnite  classic 150 has the capability to ADD the battery voltage to the 150v max while keeping the controller on.
Which means you could build a 4s3p system with your panels 132v x 28.44A the VOC would be 160.8v if you had the midnite classic 150, the FM60 shuts down at 150v to prevent damage, a midnite classic 150 would not.

Later floyd
#22
Yes Floyd but if I had a 132v array the charge controller (outback and midnite) could only use roughly 86v from array because of my battery voltage being 65.6v.. this is why in the above pic it says typical mppt for a 60v battery is 80v. My battery is 65.6 so max constant volts I’m seeing is 86v-80v.
The input amps is what the array can give, the charge controller raises those amps to charge by using the volt difference between 86v and 65.6v so when I know my panels can produce real close to max power (3660w) but the charge controller can only use 86v due to my battery being 65.6v, I am then losing any input voltage over 86v. And in my case that’s 14v because my array is 100v. 14v x 36amps (roughly amount of amps array inputs at max) is 504w that I’m not getting, that I should be getting if the charge controller could accept an input mppt voltage over 86v, but it can’t because the controller will only allow an input voltage from array roughly 20v higher than my 65.6v battery..

If my array was roughly 86v (let’s say 90v) and 40amps, then the controller could use all of that voltage and the input amps would be roughly 40amps at array max, so that’s 3440v I would be getting to charge with minus ofcourse minor loses due to many reasons..

The array doesn’t increase the amps twice,, only once, it increases the input amps (displayed as in amps on screen) to the amps it displayed as out on the outback screen.. this means that the in amps are what your panels are giving without any help from the chargecontroller. So in pic one of the charge controller I’m getting 30amps 86v which equals 2580w but the controller isn’t letting the other 14v in that array is capable of so it cannot use those extra 14v to make more amps.. the controllers not letting that 14v in because it cannot use more than roughly 20v over battery voltage to make more amps.. the mppt is doing its job by lowering the arrays voltage to a voltage (86v) that it can lower to charge the battery (65.6v) it cannot use an mppt volt higher than that because it can only create so many amps with the voltage that’s above the battery voltage. This is why I’m not getting a lot closer 3660w that I could get.
#23
To make more sense to myself and others (I could still be bad wrong) I’ll try to explain what happens when a 48v battery is used with the 150v charge controllers..
The above pic says typical mppt for a 48v battery is 64v (it said 80v for 60v battery) so if your array was 2s 88v then the controller would mppt at roughly 64v in from array at max pv production.. the in amps that the screen would display is the amount of amps the panels are producing without help from the controller,, let’s say the amps input from array is 40amps.. so at max production 40amps x 88v should be 3520w but the controller will only use a voltage from array as high as 64v so if it was a bright sunny day and u were getting 40amps input to controller that’s 64v x 40amps= only 2560w in from array.. a lose of 960w! BUT here’s why that DOESNT happen with a 48v battery... the battery voltage of 48v minus the 150v max controller can accept = 102v that the controller can accept from array, this amount is still over the 88vmp array so controller is able use all the arrays power and the controller will most likely therefor be able to create more amps or allow more than 64v in from array...
In my case it is a 60v battery minus 150v max controller can accept = 90v that controller can accept from array. When my battery is at 65.6v then controller can only accept 84.6v from array.. BIG problem with that is my array is 100vmp so I am actually losing 15.4v (100vmp array minus 84.6v=15.5v controller will accept to stay under 150v) of my arrays power in this example..multiply that 15.4v times 36amps in from array = 554w I’m not getting from array...

So in conclusion for a 60v battery, if u want to use all the power of your array when using a 150v mppt controller, then an array voltage of 90v (possibly a bit lower depending on batteries full charge) is the highest voltage u can have.. this thoroughly sucks and is definitely info I wish I knew before starting everything.. I would have got panels with a Vmp of roughly 44v and wired each string as 2s3p = 88vmp and roughly 21imp, so I could have used all of the arrays voltage...

I thought as long as your array was under 150v that the controller would be able to use all of the arrays power... this is simply not the case,, the battery voltage has to be subtracted from the 150v to know the max array voltage the array should be for the controller to be able to get all the power the array can produce... again this is not a problem for 48v battery users because most arrays are under 102vmp but the array has to be under 90v for a 60v battery user to get all the arrays power when using a 150v charge controller Sad

I wonder if I could use a 200v midnite to be able to get all of the power from the array? With only a 100vmp array The volts would probably be to low for the 200v controller to be very efficient
#24
no where is the voltage  subtracted in this midnite  classic calculator


http://www.midnitesolar.com/sizingTool/index.php
 I entered as much data from your panels as I could remember.
 later floyd
#25
Yeah I used that sizing tool when I had to figure out how to wire my panels for the charge controller.. it did not tell me to subtract the battery either.. The controller will still operate with voltages up to 150v from array, but it will not use (at max production) voltages from array over the amount left once battery voltage is subtracted from 150v. So I’m my case I can’t use no more than roughly 84.4 from array at max production with battery charge at 65.6v.
#26
You have quantity 12x 305W @STC panels right? That must be how you get the 3660W number.
Did you get what I explained earlier about NOCT real world values?
In the real world, your panels will not make 305W each, they will only make 224.2W each, that's what the specs say.
In the real world you will never get sustained 3660W from your panels.
Sorry to break it to you but you can only expect 12x 224.2 = about 2690.4W from your array.
Mine & everyone else's do the same thing!

re the hyper voc thing:
It seems you're over thinking what the description means!
Subtracting the battery volts from the array volts is plain wrong way of thinking & it doesn't work that way at all!

Your whole issue is about understanding what (all) solar panels do in actual sunlight (NOCT) vs the test lab numbers (STC) they use to sell them.
Your array is not a 3660W array in the real world, it's really a 2690W array.
Running off solar, DIY & electronics fan :-)
#27
Red,, I have to say I disagree bud.
U are saying I should expect 1000 less watts from my array and it’s only a 3660w array..!! I wasn’t stating the voc, I was stating the vmp.

When I had the panels wired 2s and was running straight solar to the grid tie inverter, no battery, I was getting 1700w sustained from each inverter.. that’s 3400w. They are cheap inverters so I can understand getting 260w less than 3660w from the arrays..
I switched to powering those inverters from batteries and rewired my panels to 3s and I have no shading issues. Now the mppt is the outback, not the Cheap inverters so I should be getting ATLEAST the same 3400w and the remaining 260w of the array going to waste from the basic loses.
That’s not happening and I’m only seeing roughly 3100w sustained now, that 300w less than the cheap grid tie inverters mppt was giving me.

I understand that most ppl are using 48v batteries, not 60v as I am using, so not many ppl are having this problem with going over 150v battery plus array..
Arrays are only supposed to be roughly 30% higher than the battery voltage.. there’s reasons for this. The controller can’t use voltages much more than 30% higher than the battery voltage. The controllers can only create so many amps so they cannot use much more voltage than 30% higher than battery voltage..
Again ppl with a 48v battery do not have this issue because they most likely aren’t wiring up their panels to over 100v because they are using only a 48v battery,, 100v array+48v battery, they are still good and can use all of the array. I use a 60v battery so 100v array + 65.1v battery is over 150v. It’s simple math but I didn’t know this was the case before I got started with my setup.. 66v 2s was to low for my 60v battery to charge so I went to 3s which was a lot more than 30% above battery voltage but I didn’t have a choice because 2s wasn’t high enough.. again if my battery was 48v this wouldn’t have been an issue.
I actually remember a discussion on one of the outback or midnite forums (it involved a midnite or outback tech) about this issue for ppl with 60v batteries but for some reason I forgot I read it when installing my system, and now I can’t find it or I would show it. But until I find it, it said something to the affect of adding the battery voltage to the array voltage to insure u will not go over 150v.... again the reason many ppl do not know this is because nobody would try to use an array over 100v to charge a 48v battery.. but in my case 2s wasn’t enough and 3s made a 100v array which is roughly 15v over 150v when 65v battery voltage is added to the array..

all the above is actually reasons why we can’t use the 150v controllers to charge a battery over 72v,,, 150v - 72v battery = 78v array max (which can but barely still charge a 72v battery because 78v is higher than 72v) that can be used and still get all the power from the array. If they (outback-midnite) for instance said we can charge an 84v battery (they don’t say that) then 150v - 84v = 66v array which isn’t high enough to charge and 84v battery and this is why we cant charge a battery over 60v72v with these 150v charge controllers

Another way to look at this-understand it,,
if the array was 130vmp then why can’t we charge a 96v battery with the 150v charge controller? Simply put, it’s because 130v array + 96v battery equals 226v which is higher than the 150v that the 150v charge controllers can handle. This is the same reason we can’t charge an 84v battery with these 150v controllers. And same reason 72v is the highest battery voltage the midnite 150v can charge. 150v - 72v battery = 78v which is still over the battery voltage so charging can happen, although if the array is over 78v then u will lose all-most of the volts over 78v from array
#28
Now I’m wishing my array was roughly 88v instead of 100v.. I would still not get all the power from the array tho because when battery is full at 65.1v and I need close max production from array when its are capable of giving it then 88v array plus 65.1v battery = 153.1v, so a lose of 3.1v, but I seen my charge controller go as high as 158v combined a few times so maybe I would get all the power from the array, minus basic loses.. Anyways I know i would get a good bit more with an 88v array than having a 100v array when using a 150v controller to charge a battery that I charge to 65.1v
#29
Doin it,
 
So you are saying these top of the line "Outback and Midnight" controllers are limiting their output because of a 60V nominal system?
what is you Min V and Mav V?
 
I’m curious as I am looking to eventually replace my MakeSky Blue controllers.



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#30
Hello wolf, Not because of a 60v nominal system.. they just can’t handle volts over 150v.. They (I guess) just need heftier internals to handle more voltage..the midnite 200v can handle up to 200v obviously and can charge slightly higher voltage batteries than the 150v controller can charge.

This is a pic of someone else’s 150v charge controller.. on the right it shows 66.1v output to battery (so 60v nominal battery) . The array is 4500w total (using vmp and imp statistics) and he’s almost getting all of the arrays power minus some basic loses. It was showing roughly 4280w sustained in a video I watched of it.. notice the battery voltage and the array voltage are not over 150v combined. He is getting almost all of the arrays power because his vmp of his array is real close to the max mppt voltage. I think it was 87vmp array if I remember correctly.
This guy actually wired his battery pack for 72v nominal and used same array wired the same way as when his battery was 60v,,, he did not get as many watts from the array.

They recommend an array 30% higher than battery voltage for a reason, anything lower doesn’t charge correctly and anything higher can be wasted if the total of battery and array voltage is over the 150v the controller can handle.

Min V and max V or what wolf? Battery i drain to 58v and charge to 65.3max. Like I said I’d be in good shape if the vmp of my array was closer to 85-88v.. but mines 100vmp battery is 65.3v so I’m over the 150v unfortunately.. still works but I don’t get all the arrays power.
I’m debating selling all my new panels and getting used panels closer to the array voltage I need for a 60v battery


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