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18650 best soldering technique?
#21
So if we analyze the crux of the matter we all should just pack up our stuff put it in a bomb proof concrete enclosed decommissioned nuclear power plant and go home and shut up.
NOT!
I will not comply to being forced to listen to the "Experts" and buy premade Li-Ion cell packages from manufactures who guarantee them from failure. I wonder who the "Experts" are who designed the battery for the Samsung Note, who the "Experts" are who designed the Tesla and spot weld their cells. Surely those packs can't explode and catch fire, who the "Experts" are that say coffee is bad for you one day and the next it's a miracle drink that can cure cancer.

An "Expert" is the same as a MD "Practicing the art of medicine" The human body hasn't changed in at least 5000 years of recorded history if you believe the bible and they are still practicing? No wonder so many mistakes are made, plausible deniability. Hey I'm just practicing.
All an "Expert" is, is a self or possibly peer proclaimed person who has studied a particular field to the point where they feel (or others feel) they have a very good knowledge of the subject and can speak with authority on it. Truth is they are still practicing because there is always something new just around the corner. Anyone that makes the claim that they are or I am an "Expert" needs to seriously examine their physiological profile.
 
I am not an "Expert" in soldering or spot welding however I am a dam good amateur.
In my case I spot welded all my cells with a Kweld and the Cell level fuse sheets from battery hookup.
It took a bunch of not good welds to whoa I guess I burned through that one experiments to find the right settings to have a perfect spot weld. 
I guess that makes me an "Expert" I learned by doing, No just kidding I abhor the term. Every time I hear it I cringe.
So likewise if I were to try to solder all my cells and tested on a bunch of them, I would come to the same results. A happy medium between not enough or too much to just right.
As a DIY there does have to be a certain amount of mechanical dexterity and common sense involved that I find most "Experts are sadly lacking. 
Trust me in my 25 years being an "Expert" automotive technician and repairing the 'Experts" vehicles you learn a lot about the "Experts" including yourself. 
The "Experts" always seem to know what was wrong with their vehicle in there "expert opinion" which is the point I wanted to make before I got sidetracked
 
All there is, is an opinion possibly backed up by some facts but mostly an opinion.
How does someone prove that soldering is bad for a cell? Well the "Experts" say it is, so and you shouldn't try it. Did the "Expert" actually try to solder a cell?
In my view, and knowing "Experts", if they tried, first off wouldn't know what end of the soldering iron to use, and probably burned themselves on it, so hence they proudly proclaim you should not do it. Not only is it not a good idea it is strictly verboten, prohibited ,not recommended, etc. It used to be that the "Experts" would actually go down to the factory floor and talk to the mechanically inclined workers and ask if such and such is doable and get an opinion. That form of communication has obviously been set to the wayside. The workers build the crap that is designed in the confines of a cad program giving no forethought of how you would repair such an item without taking the whole thing apart to replace a 50 cent fuse. 
Throwaway society.

In the final conclusion solder or spot weld away. Be cautious, use good judgment, experiment on a bunch of cells till you feel you are an "Expert" and then proceed to bash everyone that is not. Tongue

Once the bashing begins then we will know how much of an "Expert" you are!

Wolf
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#22
(07-14-2020, 04:16 PM)OffGridInTheCity Wrote:  My results are consistent with many battery packs/powerwalls built over the last 4 years as evidenced by many youtubes + the experience shared on this forum.     I would not call this history of success 'anecdotal'.  [...] Remember that warnings are not the same as actionable facts in DIY powerwall terms. 

And many folks have been smoking/vaping for 4 years too but haven't yet developed lung cancer.

Obviously we have very different standards of proof and risk assessment.

If you ignore the experts then you do so at your own peril.

But you place others at risk when you attempt to refute these expert safety warnings. This may greatly mislead novices on safety matters.

It is essential to be aware of the global ramifications of such. It impacts more than just safety. For example, consider what happened in the larger vaping community. In the beginning it was mostly knowledgeable users who knew enough to help mitigate some of the Li-ion risks. But as use percolated much more widely into the less technical general public, the frequency of horrific accidents greatly increased - mainly because the vaping community did not do an adequate job of properly educating the general public on the risks. There were many unfounded arguments like above ("I've been doing this for years without a problem" etc). As a result, this sparked knee-jerk policy decisions that reduced the global supply chain of Li-ion cells available to consumers. Without care, analogous problems could occur in the powerwall community as it grows. If these mistakes keep happening it may eventually lead to draconian laws that make it very difficult or expensive for (properly educated) consumers to obtain cells.

(07-14-2020, 04:33 PM)Wolf Wrote: So if we analyze the crux of the matter we all should just pack up our stuff put it in a bomb proof concrete enclosed decommissioned nuclear power plant and go home and shut up [...]

Where did you get that strange idea? Nobody said anything anywhere near that above. Please strive to avoid such hyperbole - it does not lead to constructive discussion. Let's strive to avoid human venting and flaming too!
#23
This forum is about sharing experience (my experience has been excellent) and information (the youtube I posted shows that cells don't get excessively hot when soldered).   

This forum is not about trying to coerce people to accept any specific opinion - mine or yours - and no 'danger to others' is occurring here...    information is just that - information.   I respect people enough to believe they will make good decisions for themselves.

One thing I've observed about DIY powerwalls (solar systems) is that I don't think I ever see 2 that are exactly alike.  Its amazing the range of choices people make - and part the overall fun.
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#24
(07-14-2020, 05:19 PM)OffGridInTheCity Wrote: [...] I respect people enough to believe they will make good decisions for themselves.

As said vaping (and hoverboard) analogies show, that is not always a reasonable expectation. But likely powerwalls haven't yet percolated widely enough into general public use that they suffer analogous problems. Adequate dissemination of safety literature will go a long way towards avoiding such.
#25
(07-14-2020, 04:49 PM)gauss163 Wrote: Where did you get that strange idea? Nobody said anything anywhere near that above. Please strive to avoid such hyperbole - it does not lead to constructive discussion. Let's strive to avoid human venting and flaming too!

No hyperbole implied. Well other than the decommissioned nuclear power plant.
Certainly not flaming either just stating my experience with Experts.
Most of my experiences are more than likely shared with many other DIY and laymen.
just sayin.
Well back to best soldering technique as we have again hijacked this thread to death.
Apologies to the OP
Wolf

(07-14-2020, 05:39 PM)gauss163 Wrote:
(07-14-2020, 05:19 PM)OffGridInTheCity Wrote: [...] I respect people enough to believe they will make good decisions for themselves.

As said vaping (and hoverboard) analogies show, that is not always a reasonable expectation. But likely powerwalls haven't yet percolated widely enough into general public use that they suffer analogous problems. Adequate dissemination of safety literature will go a long way towards avoiding such.

There are people in this world who will no matter what never adhere to safety protocol no matter who wrote it.
That is why people get hurt or die from all kinds of things.
Because we have car accidents do we outlaw cars of course not. But we can make them as safe as possible and use them in a responsible way.

That is what the DIY does with salvaged batteries.
Make them as safe as possible. 
As far as documentation I'm not sure there is a MSDS for our powerwalls at least i haven't seen one yet.

Life is a risk treat it with care.
Wolf
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#26
I would say we have more than 100 000 soldered cells in this Group without as of today issues in the big term. With that Said its Hard to say what causes issues when There have been issues. Was it due to soldering or just over Charge. Or both? What was the big denominator?


We can all agree that spot welding is the known de facto standard and that manufactoures of course say that soldering is bad. All kind of heat exposure to the cells are bad since you cannot for sure tell what happens inside. We can only state that it "looks to be ok based on current situation"

Its all about risk factors here and thats not something taken lightly.

Walking across the street in a larger town is also dangerous.

Gaus163 If you have a scientific test or datasheet showing how it degrades cells i would happily Read that. I have not found any that go into facts on how it for affect Long term more than that it do affect.


I have even worked with a cell manufacturer where we talked about this and they say the same. It affect but we dont know If and how. In their case it was as simple as "we havent tested it throughly since spot welding is so much faster"
And in that case i talked to the responsible test operators Wink

So lets end the political here. IF any want to discuss it further start such a thread. I Will Close the thread If not followed.
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#27
(07-14-2020, 05:39 PM)gauss163 Wrote: As said vaping (and hoverboard) analogies show, that is not always a reasonable expectation.

I believe "experts" designed such devices.

(07-14-2020, 05:50 PM)Wolf Wrote: Well back to best soldering technique as we have again hijacked this thread to death.
Apologies to the OP
Wolf
(07-14-2020, 06:05 PM)daromer Wrote: So lets end the political here. IF any want to discuss it further start such a thread. I Will Close the thread If not followed.



Agreed
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#28
(07-14-2020, 06:05 PM)daromer Wrote: Gaus163 If you have a scientific test or datasheet showing how it degrades cells i would happily Read that [...]

As I remarked above, it's unlikely we'll be able to find rigorous tests since there is no motivation for manufacturers to fund such expensive studies, since soldering is never used by professionals (they are aware of the possible risks). The best we have at this point is the warnings that I excerpted from the datasheets (which you can easily locate by searching on those phrases - let me know if you need help).

(07-14-2020, 06:05 PM)daromer Wrote: So lets end the political here. IF any want to discuss it further start such a thread. I Will Close the thread If not followed.

Safety discussions should never be denigrated as "politics". One of the primary reasons that there were many horrific accidents in the vaping community is that safety discussions got shut down because many folks did not want to hear that their hobbies may be unsafe (alas, a common reaction). They ended up paying a high price for such naivete.  Thankfully, due to the painstaking efforts of many dedicated members, they have recently managed to rectify those oversights to some degree. But, alas, it's a never ending battle...
#29
This thread went into this or that. This specific thread is about soldering technique.

I do want to continues the discussion and i think its needed both as remindet but to learn new things with new People here Smile

But i think we move that out to a new thread that is only about lets say "how does soldering affect cells" or "soldering vs spot welding and its affects".

Either If you want to start it or when korishan is back move out all this to a new One? Im om mobile so cant. Note that to leave a Link from this thread to the new One so the safety aspect is Still here.
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#30
@Wolf If you hate the "expert" word like you say it's not even close to how I hate the word "specialist". Long story for another time.
Sorry for contributing to the off-topic.


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