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Fire Safe Cabinet
#1
I found an old, very sturdy, steel metal cabinet on ebay. Sanded off some rust and put some nice finish on it.
It is big enough to keep my planned small powerwall (only for excess power) of about 1kwh easyly in it.
I think the steel is somewhere between 0.5m an 1mm  thick (will measure it later), defenitly thicker than the modern electrical house fuse cabinets (however thats called in english :-)). 
Now i am thinking about if i should add some fireproof material like dry wall construction sheets on the inside or if i should leave it and only put some coating in it to prevent electrical shorts to the cabinet. 

The cabinet with the powerwall will be in the basement (washmashine and heating) room of my brick built house and there are nearly no burnable things inside that room.

What would you do? Leave the metal cabinet or add fireprove material on the inside?
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#2
Add drywall or better yet concrete backerboard (tile backer). I have seen Charging boxes made from 19 mm drywall joined together with drywall dust and white glue. I made a small box for charging the 3s lipo battery I have for my welder. if I can find the link with the details on how to make the charging box I will post it here.
Charge it only while you are there. From what I read that is how the RC community recommends charging is done. BMS required unless you use a balance charger.

Later floyd
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#3
(07-15-2020, 02:38 PM)floydR Wrote: [..]concrete backerboard (tile backer).[..]

Im not sure if we have something like this here because we don't usually have wood frame constructed houses here.

And hmmm. charging only when i am there wouldn't be an option on a powerwall Huh
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#4
(07-15-2020, 02:38 PM)floydR Wrote: Add drywall or better yet concrete backerboard (tile backer). I have seen Charging boxes made from 19 mm drywall joined together with drywall dust and white glue. I made a small box for charging the 3s lipo battery I have for my welder. if I can find the link with the details on how to make the charging box I will post it here.
Charge it only while you are there. From what I read that is how the RC community  recommends charging is done. BMS required unless you use a balance charger.

Later floyd
Possibility of a fire proof file cabinet they have one hour rating and are sealed ?   I have one 4 drawer I use for my LTO's

JimJr
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#5
1 kWh could be a portable generator. Here is a 3.5 kWh solar generator Mike Nacko made. https://youtu.be/PVnQ87Fvsk4
later floyd
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#6
(07-15-2020, 03:57 PM)Jim Jr. Wrote: Possibility of a fire proof file cabinet they have one hour rating and are sealed ?   I have one 4 drawer I use for my LTO's

I think fully sealed containers are usually not a good idea when storing volatile stuff, because fire/heat will increase the inside pressure until something bursts open violently.  You'll probably want something that safely vents out.
Modular PowerShelf using 3D printed packs.  60kWh and growing.
https://secondlifestorage.com/showthread.php?tid=6458
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#7
(07-15-2020, 11:01 PM)ajw22 Wrote:
(07-15-2020, 03:57 PM)Jim Jr. Wrote: Possibility of a fire proof file cabinet they have one hour rating and are sealed ?   I have one 4 drawer I use for my LTO's

I think fully sealed containers are usually not a good idea when storing volatile stuff, because fire/heat will increase the inside pressure until something bursts open violently.  You'll probably want something that safely vents out.

Apparently,  you never have seen one , the file cabinet variety only have a labyrinth seal of non burnable material , no pressure buildup

Jim jr
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#8
In addition to the fire and explosion risks, it deserves to be much better known that Li-ion fires produce large amounts of toxic gases (which is why firefighters use SCBA = self contained breathing apparatus). In particular, even a single cell fire already produces unsafe levels of HF (hydroflouric acid), so imagine what hundreds of burning cells can do. Even a small amount of HF inhalation can lead to serious and long-lasting health problems.  So you don't want to be anywhere near a burning huge pack like a powerwall. These risks are quite real (not simply liability motivated FUD). 

If you peruse the above CDC link you'll see that one particularly nasty aspect of HF inhalation is the possibly delayed onset of symptoms, e.g. it may take a few days for pulmonary edema (fluid in lungs) to rear its ugly head, and this may in turn lead to chronic lung disease. So if you are ever exposed to gases from a Li-ion fire always seek medical treatment immediately, even if initially you don't notice any problems.

There are many studies showing these risks, e.g. one from last year:  Park et al, Risk assessment of lithium-ion battery explosion: chemical leakages, Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health, Part B, 1-12, (2019). Below is an excerpt of the abstract:

Quote:Use of lithium-ion batteries has raised safety issues owing to chemical leakages, overcharging, external heating, or explosions. A risk assessment was conducted for hydrofluoric acid (HF) and lithium hydroxide (LiOH) which potential might leak from lithium-ion batteries. The inhalation no-observed-adverse-effect-level (NOAEL) for HF was 0.75 mg/kg/d. When a lithium-ion battery explodes in a limited space, HF emissions amount to 10–100 ppm. Assuming the worst-case scenario, the conversion rate was calculated to be 81.8 mg/m3, and the average daily dose (ADD) was 19.5 mg/kg/d. Consequently, the margin of exposure (MOE = NOAEL/ADD) was 0.034, a value which constitutes an unsafe inhalation exposure for HF.
Jim Jr. likes this post
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#9
(07-16-2020, 08:04 PM)gauss163 Wrote: In addition to the fire and explosion risks, it deserves to be much better known that Li-ion fires produce large amounts of toxic gases (which is why firefighters use SCBA = self contained breathing apparatus). In particular, even a single cell fire already produces unsafe levels of HF (hydroflouric acid), so imagine what hundreds of burning cells can do. Even a small amount of HF inhalation can lead to serious and long-lasting health problems.  So you don't want to be anywhere near a burning huge pack like a powerwall. These risks are quite real (not simply liability motivated FUD). 

If you peruse the above CDC link you'll see that one particularly nasty aspect of HF inhalation is the possibly delayed onset of symptoms, e.g. it may take a few days for pulmonary edema (fluid in lungs) to rear its ugly head, and this may in turn lead to chronic lung disease. So if you are ever exposed to gases from a Li-ion fire always seek medical treatment immediately, even if initially you don't notice any problems.

There are many studies showing these risks, e.g. one from last year:  Park et al, Risk assessment of lithium-ion battery explosion: chemical leakages, Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health, Part B, 1-12, (2019). Below is an excerpt of the abstract:

Quote:Use of lithium-ion batteries has raised safety issues owing to chemical leakages, overcharging, external heating, or explosions. A risk assessment was conducted for hydrofluoric acid (HF) and lithium hydroxide (LiOH) which potential might leak from lithium-ion batteries. The inhalation no-observed-adverse-effect-level (NOAEL) for HF was 0.75 mg/kg/d. When a lithium-ion battery explodes in a limited space, HF emissions amount to 10–100 ppm. Assuming the worst-case scenario, the conversion rate was calculated to be 81.8 mg/m3, and the average daily dose (ADD) was 19.5 mg/kg/d. Consequently, the margin of exposure (MOE = NOAEL/ADD) was 0.034, a value which constitutes an unsafe inhalation exposure for HF.

The fire proof cabinet can be vented to the outside with stainless steel double wall furnace pipe .   With silicon sealer to prevent backing up into the inside room. The sealer will also prevent any additional oxygen imput to the fire Idea

Jimjr
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#10
Just vent into neighbours house.
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