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Other inverter options?
#11
(08-24-2020, 02:07 PM)daromer Wrote: Any hybrid systems. I run the MPI10kW as example. I run my whole house, garage, gues house on this inverter through the load port. . This makes it fully offgrid. If not i can switch to run the houses on the grid-port instead and its combined.

“On the load port it can do x kW and also let through ykW from the grid. The hybrid systems have advantage of being able to be off grid capable at same time as they are grid- compatbile and tied to the grid. Ie all surplus energy not stored in my battery banks are sent back to the grid and sold instead.”

“1 unit does this ALL. Smile
I thought most load ports can’t handle over a 2000w load? I see it can also let the grid supply anything over x kw the load port can supply.
How much can the MPs load port supply?

When you switch the MP inverter to run on the grid port (or any port or setting) can the loads use pv first then at the same time use battery then if loads still need more power they use grid lastly at the same time as pv and battery? And charge battery (charge controller) with pv dc if loads-inverters aren’t using all of the available pv power, and do all of this without changing any settings or ports? And limit the inverters supply to not feed into the grid?

(08-24-2020, 05:06 AM)OffGridInTheCity Wrote: I'm offgrid and I don't need permission from anyone.   I use automatic transfer switches to feed offgrid power to the house when I have enough battery to turn on the inverter and then back to grid when the battery runs low / inverter turns off.   The limitation with a system like this is that I can't sell any excess back to the power company because I'm not connected to the grid....  but that's OK as my home consumes more than I can make.

I agree that it has taken a bit more than just 'out of the box' to get things setup, run proper wiring, etc...  and I'm not saying this will work for you - but Iwanted to point out that it is indeed possible to be offgrid (even in the city) with some limitations.

Awesome setup offgridinthecity! This sounds like a viable alternative for me. I do not sell to the grid now and I’m fine with that. I’d need to pay a fee to have their solar meter and other fees. Also in my area a nabcep certified installed must do every bit of the installation to be approved for the solar meter.

Wouldn’t another limitation be the expense of needing large enough inverters to cover all of the loads?
It sure would be a lot more wiring, a grid tie inverter connects directly to the main panel.

Do you have your ATS on the main panel and your offgrid inverters wired to the main panel so u wouldn’t need to have subpanels for offgrid? I know this is frowned upon but I guess with an ATS the offgrid inverters wouldn’t zap lineman

Idk tho, I kinda like having the grid tie inverters running 24/7. I’d have to look into the cost of it all. I’m sure I’d have to spend close to 4 times as much on inverters to be able to cover all of the air conditioning load in the summer oven etc possibly running at the same time. Right now I have two 2kw inverters that I let produce 1500w each which covers all of the air conditioning load when it’s running but if something else was on like cooking the grid would help supply power for that. If I was offgrid I’d have to have enough inverter to cover all that. Probably would drain batteries faster. But I guess it would save the same amount of moneySmile
#12
Sol-ark seems to fit the bill. It has a “time of use” mode that allows pv and battery to be used at the same time as grid power is used. It says “minimize grid power usage” which makes me assume grid can be used at the same time.
It also has a meter zero mode which zeros the grid usage without feeding into the grid. Think the meter zero mode can be used at the same time as time of use mode? If only one mode can be used at a time then this inverter doesn’t do what the GTIL2 can do. I hope it does

Wow! Never mind.. It might fit the bill but the bill is really high, costs over $5000
Looking for cheaper options than that for sureWink

Still searching for a grid tie inverter that can use a 60v or under battery. And also limit its supply to the amount the loads are using. If there isn’t any other inverters like the GTIL2, a setup like offgridinthecity would be my only alternative.
#13
Agree about needing special equipment, permits, power company approval, special installers to 'connect to the grid'.  Another reason I went offgrid is control my own power if the grid goes down - don't want the power company telling me I can't generate power when they shut-off their grid. 

>Wouldn’t another limitation be the expense of needing large enough inverters to cover all of the loads?
>I’m sure I’d have to spend close to 4 times as much on inverters to be able to cover all of the
Don't have to cover all the loads - only enough to consume all the PV power that is generated.   For example, at max spring sun I generate 80kwh in a 24hr period, and based on my day-time consumption patterns, I need a battery capable of storing 35kwh for burn-off thru the night - e.g. 45kwh is consumed 'directly' as the sun is shining and 35kwh excess is consumed thru the night.

You're situation would be different, but the general principles would apply. 

>Do you have your ATS on the main panel and your offgrid inverters wired to the main panel so u wouldn’t need to have subpanels for offgrid?
Yes.  The main panel (grid side) and my 12,000w inverter (generator side) each feed 50a@240v to an ATS (the box at the bottom right).  The ATS feeds a regular 'generator' MTS which is hooked into the main panel.   The MTS let's me switch circuit(s) between grid and gen - and therefore control loads to which the inverter is exposed.


When the inverter turns on, the ATS contractors switch over and wa la - power is feed to home circuits.   When the battery drains down the inverter goes off and automatically back to grid.   This works well operationally because if the Solar system is 'off' - like when I work on things - the grid automatically takes over.  So I can work on things for a day or a week with no disruption to the household Smile


P.S. I've seen several youtubes on SolArks and they are definately COOL!.   However, they're up there - e.g. $7000 for 12,000watts.   I run 24,000watts (2 AIMS at $3500 each) and 2 x SolArks would be more like $14000.
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#14
[quote="OffGridInTheCity" pid='66807' dateline='1598313833']
Agree about needing special equipment, permits, power company approval, special installers to 'connect to the grid'.  Another reason I went offgrid is control my own power if the grid goes down - don't want the power company telling me I can't generate power when they shut-off their grid. 

>Wouldn’t another limitation be the expense of needing large enough inverters to cover all of the loads?
>I’m sure I’d have to spend close to 4 times as much on inverters to be able to cover all of the
Don't have to cover all the loads - only enough to consume all the PV power that is generated.   For example, at max spring sun I generate 80kwh in a 24hr period, and based on my day-time consumption patterns, I need a battery capable of storing 35kwh for burn-off thru the night - e.g. 45kwh is consumed 'directly' as the sun is shining and 35kwh excess is consumed thru the night.



Wouldn’t u still have to have inverters that could produce the kw needed when a lot of loads are on at once? Or do u have only some of your homes loads connected to offgrid to not overload the offgrid inverter? If loads were possibly 8kw for 5 min or 20 min etc. then inverters would have to be capable of 8kw because the grid can’t help supply loads like when using a grid tie inverter.

The Solarks aren’t for a cheap 4-life type of fella Wink I think a grand or 2 tops for my wallet

I’m still looking at victron to see if they will do like the GTIL2
#15
>Wouldn’t u still have to have inverters that could produce the kw needed when a lot of loads are on at once? If loads were possibly 8kw at a given moment then >inverters would have to be capable of 8kw because the grid can’t help supply loads like when using a grid tie inverter.
Sure - but nothing says you have to feed your inverter to the 'mains' of the house so its all or nothing - remember its 100% offgrid Smile

My home has 30'ish circuits and I chose circuit by circuit thru the MTS (Manual Transfer Switch) and wiring the subset of circuits that I wanted based on PV power and inverter capabilities.   Under standard operations, the inverters are loaded 50-70%.    This leaves room for occasional things like vacuum cleaner and power saw (at the same time) without worrying about overload.   I could make it 'tighter' but I don't need to because I'm consuming 100% of PV power.    

 The other circuits simply remain on grid 100% of the time.    The Spa and Dryer are examples of things that weren't worth buying extra inverter power to run since I don't have extra PV to run them.
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#16
Offgridinthecity, is the panel with all the switches on the right the MTS? So when your battery is charged the ATS sends power to the MTS. You have some of the loads-switches in the MTS switched to be powered by grid power if necessary?
#17
(08-25-2020, 04:03 AM)Cheap 4-life Wrote: Offgridinthecity, is the panel with all the switches on the right the MTS? So when your battery is charged the ATS sends power to the MTS. You have some of the loads-switches in the MTS switched to be  powered by grid power if necessary?
Yes.  Here's a closeup of the MTS. 
As an example of inverter load management - notice the Dryer is switched to LINE (e.g. 100% grid) position right now.  That's because the heat pump (AC) is consuming all the PV power during the summer.   In the spring and fall when the heat pump power declines and I have excess PV - the Dryer is switched to GEN (e.g. inverter) which helps consume the excess PV power.        
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#18
The one i have do 10kw in single unit and 30kw in 3.
You can choose exactly what order to use energy. Its hybrid = bidirectonal system so the load goes where its the easiest.

A grid-tie is single way only.


Once again the GTIL is ONLY a grid tie inverter. Victron, mpp and all other have alot more complex functionality in total. The GTIL as example need to have permit to run since its connected to the grid. So is the MPI that i run Smile
Grid tie is perfect for those only limiting or reducing the load and have the approval to do so. No matter if you "limit" you still need the legal approvment to connect that equipment. Atleast in all countries i know about Smile
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#19
(08-25-2020, 03:29 PM)daromer Wrote: The one i have do 10kw in single unit and 30kw in 3.
You can choose exactly what order to use energy. Its hybrid = bidirectonal system so the load goes where its the easiest.

A grid-tie is single way only.


Once again the GTIL is ONLY a grid tie inverter. Victron, mpp and all other have alot more complex functionality in total. The GTIL as example need to have permit to run since its connected to the grid. So is the MPI that i run Smile
Grid tie is perfect for those only limiting or reducing the load and have the approval to do so. No matter if you "limit" you still need the legal approvment to connect that equipment. Atleast in all countries i know about Smile

I completely agree that there is other inverters that have a lot more complex functionality in total. Things like AC-DC charging and also being an offgrid inverter are things that I do not need. I already have an offgrid inverter that I use for emergencies. I already have a charge controller to charge the battery.

Also agree that the GTIL2 is only a grid tie inverter. Difference is that it can be powered by a battery bank. Which allows the loads to use pv first battery second and grid power at the same time. This enables a user to supply all of their loads even at night and if there’s spikes of power used or times when loads are really high, it is ok because the grid just handles the rest of the power needed.

It also can limit itself (like a few other inverters do) to only supply what the loads are using. This is very beneficial. The cost in my area to have a solar setup put in is astronomical. I can’t install a single solar panel if I want the solar meter put on my house. The ROI was close to the time I should be ready to push up daisies. I have no choice but to have a limiting inverter so I do not need the solar meter. I am not pushing any power out of my house so it’s none of their business imo.

the GTIL2 can supply all of my loads 24/7 if I had enough battery. I do keep them running 24/7 (supplying all of my load) in the winter spring and fall when loads are low. I use a wood boiler for heat in winter. I supply almost all of my loads unless it’s summer time. Going offgrid completely (not have grid power at all) isn’t an option for me because my battery-pv isn’t large enough, yet. Wink

To know if the mpi is right for me I have 2 questions:
1. Can the mpi (in any mode or setting without changing settings) allow homes loads to use pv first then battery at the same time if pv isn’t enough. Then if pv and battery isn’t enough to fully supply the load, the grid is used to fully supply the remaining amount of the load at the same time the pv and battery is still supplying power to that load?
2. Can the mpi limit the power it supplies to only supply the amount the loads use?
#20
Slimf, you wrote “multiplus ii”
As far as I can tell, a victron cannot work like a grid tie inverter. They can be AC coupled with a grid tie inverter. but by itself will not use pv if needed first then battery if needed secondly then grid thirdly if needed. A grid tie inverter that can be powered by a battery in addition to pv, will use power for loads in that order and at the same time. All inverters that are not grid tie cannot use grid power at the same time as pv and battery.
Please correct me if I’m wrong if there’s a victron that can do that Wink

(08-25-2020, 03:19 PM)OffGridInTheCity Wrote:
(08-25-2020, 04:03 AM)Cheap 4-life Wrote: Offgridinthecity, is the panel with all the switches on the right the MTS? So when your battery is charged the ATS sends power to the MTS. You have some of the loads-switches in the MTS switched to be  powered by grid power if necessary?
Yes.  Here's a closeup of the MTS. 
As an example of inverter load management - notice the Dryer is switched to LINE (e.g. 100% grid) position right now.  That's because the heat pump (AC) is consuming all the PV power during the summer.   In the spring and fall when the heat pump power declines and I have excess PV - the Dryer is switched to GEN (e.g. inverter) which helps consume the excess PV power.        
Very cool! Are all of the loads that you can power (by the inverters) wired into the MTS?


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