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Other inverter options?
#31
I have to agree with daromer. The first two images look like a standard DC coupled set up, nothing special there. The 3rd imagine has more components, but still DC coupled PV.

And if you already have the charge controller and grid tie inverter, what exactly are you looking for? You already have those components!
#32
(08-26-2020, 02:55 PM)daromer Wrote: Google grid-tie inverter with battery and you find many that do it today. = Hybrid systems.

Schneider have it, ABB have it, Victron have it, Kostal have it, Tesla have it, Victron have it.

Im not going to dig into all models having the abillity to do battery at same time but they are plenty today. And all of them can basically do what you ask for in one way or another. But the cost is of course higher since above mentioned brands are known brands and legal.
I have ofcourse googled grid tie inverter with battery. The ones I found only use a really high voltage battery. And very few have the ability to stop power from entering the grid. I’ll explain again in the last paragraph below why this is a necessity for me.

Most Hybrid inverters cant do a few things I describe that the GTIL2 can do. But I could be wrong. I’ve never owned one. There are a few I found like the outback the sol-ark that possibly can do these things but I’m still trying to research to make sure.

Most hybrid inverters can be offgrid or grid tie in the same unit, that’s what makes them hybrid. So that’s a combination of a standard gridtie inverter that DOESNT use battery, only direct pv power and an offgrid inverter that CAN use a battery. When they are in grid tie mode, they (most) can’t use battery power unless it changes out of gridtie mode and into offgrid-backup mode and no power from grid can be used at that time. The GTIL2 uses the battery when still in grid tie mode, this allows the loads to use the grid power at the same time as battery and pv power.
When most hybrid inverters are in grid tie mode they use AC power from the grid to charge the battery. The GTIL2 allows the excess dc pv power that’s not used by the loads to charge the dc battery.

I need the inverter to limit itself to only supply what the grid is using. I explained why in my area I am forced to be “illegal”. To be legal (in my area) I have to get a solar meter. To get a solar meter (in my area) I cant install a single solar panel etc or I would already be illegal and not allowed to get a solar meter from the electric company. I can’t be a part of the install at all. The cost of having a napcep certified installer do everything meant that I would be almost paying more for the solar setup than I would have payd for electricity in my life time. It made no sense financially to lose or not save anything. It was a choice between 6 year ROI and can do it all my self and learn and have a hobby, or have a 30 year ROI and can’t touch a thing during install and not be able to change any part of the setup..ever. It was an easy choice for me.
Like I said before, it should be none of their business if I’m not feeding power into their grid. Everything on this side of the meter is mine. Really tho (In the nicest way possible) I think the legality issue brought up is taking away from this threads purposeWink

(08-26-2020, 03:16 PM)400bird Wrote: I have to agree with daromer. The first two images look like a standard DC coupled set up, nothing special there. The 3rd imagine has more components, but still DC coupled PV.

And if you already have the charge controller and grid tie inverter, what exactly are you looking for? You already have those components!

I’m looking for other inverters because the GTIL2 might not continue to be made. And I’m looking for a better, more well known name brand. I’m moving and might leave my inverters in this house. Just looking for other options, but it seems like not many (if any) can use a low enough voltage battery when they are grid tied.

[/quote]

Yes it is standard dc coupling. The thing that makes this setup different than standard dc coupling with a standard grid tie inverter, is that the GTIL2 can supply pv, battery power to loads and allow grid power to supply loads all at the same time because the GTIL2 can use a battery while it’s still grid tied. Most hybrid-grid tie inverters that can use battery will only use the battery when they are in backup or offgrid mode so the grid power can’t be used when the pv and battery is being used.
#33
What inverters are you seeing that are higher voltages? I know the Solar Edge storedge runs on a higher battery voltage. Most battery inverters are set up for 12, 24, or 48 volts.

I'm pretty sure your definition of hybrid inverter is different that industry standard. Or maybe mine is...

As far as limiting export or 0 export, most quality hybrid inverters have that function. I would say all, but I haven't done enough research. I believe that's a basic requirement for Hawaii, as they are charged for power exported to the grid.

(08-26-2020, 07:41 PM)Cheap 4-life Wrote:
(08-26-2020, 02:55 PM)daromer Wrote: Google grid-tie inverter with battery and you find many that do it today. = Hybrid systems.

Schneider have it, ABB have it, Victron have it, Kostal have it, Tesla have it, Victron have it.

Im not going to dig into all models having the abillity to do battery at same time but they are plenty today. And all of them can basically do what you ask for in one way or another. But the cost is of course higher since above mentioned brands are known brands and legal.
I have ofcourse googled grid tie inverter with battery. The ones I found only use a really high voltage battery. And very few have the ability to stop power from entering the grid. I’ll explain again in the last paragraph below why this is a necessity for me.

Most Hybrid inverters cant do a few things I describe that the GTIL2 can do. But I could be wrong. I’ve never owned one. There are a few I found like the outback the sol-ark that possibly can do these things but I’m still trying to research to make sure.

Most hybrid inverters can be offgrid or grid tie in the same unit, that’s what makes them hybrid. So that’s a combination of a standard gridtie inverter that DOESNT use battery, only direct pv power and an offgrid inverter that CAN use a battery. When they are in grid tie mode, they (most) can’t use battery power unless it changes out of gridtie mode and into offgrid-backup mode and no power from grid can be used at that time. The GTIL2 uses the battery when still in grid tie mode, this allows the loads to use the grid power at the same time as battery and pv power.
When most hybrid inverters are in grid tie mode they use AC power from the grid to charge the battery. The GTIL2 allows the excess dc pv power that’s not used by the loads to charge the dc battery.

I need the inverter to limit itself to only supply what the grid is using. I explained why in my area I am forced to be “illegal”. To be legal (in my area) I have to get a solar meter. To get a solar meter (in my area) I cant install a single solar panel etc or I would already be illegal and not allowed to get a solar meter from the electric company. I can’t be a part of the install at all. The cost of having a napcep certified installer do everything meant that I would be almost paying more for the solar setup than I would have payd for electricity in my life time. It made no sense financially to lose or not save anything. It was a choice between 6 year ROI and can do it all my self and learn and have a hobby, or have a 30 year ROI and can’t touch a thing during install and not be able to change any part of the setup..ever. It was an easy choice for me.
Like I said before, it should be none of their business if I’m not feeding power into their grid. Everything on this side of the meter is mine. Really tho (In the nicest way possible) I think the legality issue brought up is taking away from this threads purposeWink

(08-26-2020, 03:16 PM)400bird Wrote: I have to agree with daromer. The first two images look like a standard DC coupled set up, nothing special there. The 3rd imagine has more components, but still DC coupled PV.

And if you already have the charge controller and grid tie inverter, what exactly are you looking for? You already have those components!

I’m looking for other inverters because the GTIL2 might not continue to be made. And I’m looking for a better, more well known name brand. I’m moving and might leave my inverters in this house. Just looking for other options, but it seems like not many (if any) can use a low enough voltage battery when they are grid tied.
[/quote]

That makes sense. I haven't followed the GTIL2 and moving is a good reason to update.
What is your battery voltage?
#34
400bird, you asked about which inverters I was seeing using a higher voltage. Most grid tie inverters are series-string inverters that use a high voltage array. If they have battery backup mode the battery is usually also high voltage due to the high voltage array used. Battery backup mode isn’t what I’m looking for because that means that when the grid is down the inverter acts like an offgrid inverter and only then uses the battery, meaning it can’t use grid power while using batteries.

My grid tie inverters have an operating voltage range of 45-90v. I use a 16s 60v nominal lithium battery. I charge it to 65.6v max. My offgrid inverter can operate using this voltage aswell.
#35
All hybrids i have looked at can transfer to grid as the GTIL do from battery and solar at same time. Thats their main deal being Hybrid once again. A proper hybrid system have a bi-directional system where battery+solar+grid is all linked together in a common HVDC bus. Those that are single units. If you look at Victron they use the battery as main bus but they can be linked in the same way.

Schneider, abb, victron, mpp among some do all have 48VDC
MPP, Tesla among others have limiting. I havent looked into the others but im pretty sure Victron can do it to but it cost 10x your current setup. I dont see the purpose in limiting myself since wasting the energy by limiting is to me... waste? Smile I sell all excess and therefore the limiting is just no worth it.

I priotize to use
1. Solar
2. Battery
3. Grid

My solar is priotized:
1. To be used
2. To charge the battery
3. To be sold to grid.

This is the most common setup on ALL Battery-systems that are grid-tied aka Hybrid.



Neither less im not going to help you being illegal as such since i highly recommend to follow standards and i like my fellow electricians to know they can work on the grid without having to worry about people hooking up gear that isnt approved.
Sorry.
NOTE! My links supplied in this message may be affiliated with Ebay and by clicking on them you agree on the terms.
YouTube / Forum system setup / My webpage  Diy Tech & Repairs

Current: 10kW Mpp Hybrid | 4kW PIP4048 | 2x PCM60x | 100kWh LiFePo4 | 20kWh 14s 18650 |  66*260W Poly | ABB S3 and S5 Trip breakers
Upcoming: 14S 18650~30kWh
#36
(08-26-2020, 08:27 PM)daromer Wrote: All hybrids i have looked at can transfer to grid as the GTIL do from battery and solar at same time. Thats their main deal being Hybrid once again. A proper hybrid system have a bi-directional system where battery+solar+grid is all linked together in a common HVDC bus. Those that are single units. If you look at Victron they use the battery as main bus but they can be linked in the same way.

Schneider, abb, victron, mpp among some do all have 48VDC
MPP, Tesla among others have limiting. I havent looked into the others but im pretty sure Victron can do it to but it cost 10x your current setup. I dont see the purpose in limiting myself since wasting the energy by limiting is to me... waste? Smile I sell all excess and therefore the limiting is just no worth it.

I priotize to use
1. Solar
2. Battery
3. Grid

My solar is priotized:
1. To be used
2. To charge the battery
3. To be sold to grid.

This is the most common setup on ALL Battery-systems that are grid-tied aka Hybrid.



Neither less im not going to help you being illegal as such since i highly recommend to follow standards and i like my fellow electricians to know they can work on the grid without having to worry about people hooking up gear that isnt approved.
Sorry.
The GTIL2 does not transfer to the grid. It is always allowing the grid to supply power to fully supply a load if theres not enough pv, battery power available. Or if the inverter is to small to supply all the homes load, then the grid is also used at the same time to power the rest of the homes total loads that the inverters can’t fully supply. There is no transferring or switching or mode changes.

Are you saying that there’s a victron that can use pv first then battery if needed then also allow grid if needed and all those power supplies able to power the load at the same time? I just thoroughly researched victron and must have missed that somehow. They appear to be battery based inverters that aren’t gridtie, some that use ac charging for the battery.

The 48v inverters you listed above all appear to be offgrid inverters some that can act like a standard grid tie inverter. But when grid power is being used the battery cannot be used for the same load. I’ll check into them more.

Your MPI inverter... Let’s say there’s a 3000w hotwater heater load and that’s it, no other loads..,to supply that load can the MPI use pv first no battery, then if battery is needed it uses battery on top of all the pv that was available and while doing all that also allow the grid to supply power to loads along with pv and battery so the 3000w load is fully supplied by 3 different power sources at the same time?
most hybrid inverters can switch to offgrid if there’s enough battery available but when they switch to offgrid they can only use battery and pv power. Most hybrid inverters can switch to grid tie but then can only use the available pv power, not the battery.
#37
I think you are missing the point on how this all works. Its basically like having water. The energy flows where it is the easiest. But in this case to regulate it you have a meter. This regulates x times per second though it cannot whatever you do keep it to 0. It will bump up and down all the time.

Just to have an example: I had my power company call me one day stating:
"Hey, you seem to be transferring a small amount of power during the night. You cannot do that and we think you tampered with the meter. we are now at your property to look into that"

What happened then was that i was running in 0Meter mode where i during the night did EXACTLY what you did its just that i have those hyper modern meters that sense every darn watt!...
In my case i told them "I got battery bank and run 0-offset thats why and if you look into my papers im allowed to do it"

I have full approval though to send back to grid and even have battery where i live Wink They spent like 5 hours on site to meassure the meter but gave up when they realized i knew what i was talking about and it was ok Smile

This is though not common since in most countries they wont notice but neither less that gear is not approved to be hooked in. A grid-tie unit no matter if you sell or not need a set of permits like you described to be hooked into the grid from the first place.

With that said you can still go and buy almost any hybrid system or setup out there as long as it comes with 0-meter mode. But you wont get it for the GTIL2 price im afraid Smile
NOTE! My links supplied in this message may be affiliated with Ebay and by clicking on them you agree on the terms.
YouTube / Forum system setup / My webpage  Diy Tech & Repairs

Current: 10kW Mpp Hybrid | 4kW PIP4048 | 2x PCM60x | 100kWh LiFePo4 | 20kWh 14s 18650 |  66*260W Poly | ABB S3 and S5 Trip breakers
Upcoming: 14S 18650~30kWh
#38
(08-26-2020, 08:49 PM)daromer Wrote: I think you are missing the point on how this all works. Its basically like having water. The energy flows where it is the easiest. But in this case to regulate it you have a meter. This regulates x times per second though it cannot whatever you do keep it to 0. It will bump up and down all the time.

Just to have an example: I had my power company call me one day stating:
"Hey, you seem to be transferring a small amount of power during the night. You cannot do that and we think you tampered with the meter. we are now at your property to look into that"

What happened then was that i was running in 0Meter mode where i during the night did EXACTLY what you did its just that i have those hyper modern meters that sense every darn watt!...
In my case i told them "I got battery bank and run 0-offset thats why and if you look into my papers im allowed to do it"

I have full approval though to send back to grid and even have battery where i live Wink They spent like 5 hours on site to meassure the meter but gave up when they realized i knew what i was talking about and it was ok Smile

This is though not common since in most countries they wont notice but neither less that gear is not approved to be hooked in. A grid-tie unit no matter if you sell or not need a set of permits like you described to be hooked into the grid from the first place.

With that said you can still go and buy almost any hybrid system or setup out there as long as it comes with 0-meter mode. But you wont get it for the GTIL2 price im afraid Smile
Wow close call. Good you had approval. To make sure I didn’t have to deal with that, I purchased an iotawatt home-solar monitoring device which is more accurate than the meter they put on my house. I made sure to get this device to assure power wasn’t going into the grid. The GTIL2 always allows the grid to supply a small amount of power from 10-100w (adjustable by adding or removing resistors in the sensing cable) so that there isn’t any power fed into the grid. This allowance of grid power is better at keeping power from entering the grid than “0meter mode”.
I will say that when loads shut off then there is a small amount of power fed into the grid for a split second till the inverter realizes there isn’t any load and responds as fast as it can. This split second of power fed into the grid is not noticed by the electric company.
My inverter has islanding capabilities to assure the inverter does not work unless there is grid power.

I explained why I can’t get the permits,, that means I cannot install anything. ROI etc.
#39
I still haven't heard anything special about the GTIL2

Here is some reading from Victron
https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ess:d...ion-manual

"No feed-in

Feed-in of PV power via an MPPT Solar Charger can be enabled or disabled in the Energy Storage Systems menu on the CCGX”


The attached image is from the Outback Skybox programming guide

I never imagined putting so much effort into this. Please do more research and reading on some other inverters. Most aren't going to make a huge deal about limiting or blocking it's a pretty basic function for a decent inverter. As long as your solar is DC coupled, you should be able to find options that work for you.

#40
Just got done checking out victron again. Still come to the same conclusion. It is an offgrid inverter that cannot (on it own) use pv, battery and grid power at the same time for the same load. It has power assist and power control but still can’t do as I just explained. It can be ac coupled to a separate grid tie inverter. But unfortunately that’s as close as it comes to being able use 3 power sources at once for the same load.

(08-26-2020, 10:00 PM)400bird Wrote: I still haven't heard anything special about the GTIL2

Here is some reading from Victron
https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ess:d...ion-manual

"No feed-in

Feed-in of PV power via an MPPT Solar Charger can be enabled or disabled in the Energy Storage Systems menu on the CCGX”


The attached image is from the Outback Skybox programming guide

I never imagined putting so much effort into this. Please do more research and reading on some other inverters. Most aren't going to make a huge deal about limiting or blocking it's a pretty basic function for a decent inverter. As long as your solar is DC coupled, you should be able to find options that work for you.

From the reading you supplied about victron, the inverter has to be AC coupled with a grid tie inverter to do what the GTIL2 can do
I have researched types-brands-specs of inverters for many hours, scratch that, days I’ve been researching. I mentioned (before you mentioned outback) that outback has inverters that might be able to the things that I describe the GTIL2 can do.

The outback skybox can only use a battery up to 60v. (my battery charges to over 65v) I could possibly make that work with a new battery with a different voltage if I do not take my batteries with me. Unfortunately it does not have the large voltage range like the GTIL2 does 45-90v. I think the outback has more options (than most inverters) for grid zero mode, like the non-export and max independence settings. This would possibly prevent a visit like daromer got from the electric company when he was using zero export. Most of the zero export modes on most inverters unfortunately still allow a small amount of power into the grid because that mode is more for limiting power into the grid for people that have a solar meter which makes it ok to feed into the grid slightly. I’ve heard of a lot of circumstances where zero export modes still allowed small steady amount of power into the grid. The GTIL2 always allows the grid to supply 10-100w to do a better job at preventing any power from going into the grid. The outback from everything I read-reviews-specs is very good at keeping power from goin into grid with the non-export mode

Daromer sir, Schneider is the same as victron. It has to be ac coupled with a grid tie inverter to do as the GTIL2 does


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