Other inverter options?

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Cheap 4-life

Cheap 4-life

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Besides the GTIL2, are there any inverters that can use the grid power, battery power and pv power all at the same time seamlessly without having to change settings?
Also allow the battery to charge with the excess pv power loads arent using.
Also able to operate at a reasonable battery voltage under 120v, preferably closer to 60v.
And lastly be able to limit its ac power supply to only supply the amount of power the loads are using.

Ive been looking and cant find any others. I have found a few but they need batteries with a really high voltage. The GTIL2 can operate between 45-90v.
I guess Im looking for a grid tie inverter that is not a string inverter. Im wanting to use a lower battery-operating volts than a string inverter will be able to use.

Imo the GTIL2 (although not a well known brand) has things going for it that are not common features for an inverter to have. I think these things would be appreciated by many more people if the brand was more well known. I myself started this post in pursuit of a better quality brand inverter (I haven't had problems with GTIL2) that have these features.

Most people cant be fully offgrid without a costly offgrid setup that most cant afford. Or their area doesnt allow offgrid. So then grid tie is the option for them so they can still use grid power when needed. But they should still be able to store excess pv power (not used throughout the day) in a battery to be used during the night and early morning. The GTIL2 makes all that possible seamlessly. Also the stored battery power can then be used by an offgrid inverter in case of an emergency.

There has to be other inverters than can do all of this using a low voltage battery like the GTIL2 can do. Id hate to have to use a 120+v battery.
 
I'm offgrid and I don't need permission from anyone. I use automatic transfer switches to feed offgrid power to the house when I have enough battery to turn on the inverter and then back to grid when the battery runs low / inverter turns off. The limitation with a system like this is thatI can't sell any excess back to the power companybecause I'm not connected to the grid.... but that's OK as my home consumes more than I can make.

I agree that it has taken a bit more than just 'out of the box' to get things setup, run proper wiring, etc... and I'mnot saying this will work for you - but Iwanted to point out that it is indeed possible to be offgrid (even in the city)with some limitations.
 
The gtil cant do all of that.. its that you use it wrong and its only ment to be a grid tie system .

What you look for is a hybrid systen. All those can do it butbthry cost aloot more!
 
daromer said:
The gtil cant do all of that.. its that you use it wrong and its only ment to be a grid tie system .

What you look for is a hybrid systen. All those can do it butbthry cost aloot more!
Click to expand...

The GTIL2 can do everything I describe. I am not using it wrong. It can be powered by a battery or by pv direct (without a battery installed) or both at the same time and the grid supplies power at the same time as the battery and pv if the battery and pv together are not enough to fully supply the loads.

OffGridInTheCity said:
I'm offgrid and I don't need permission from anyone. I use automatic transfer switches to feed offgrid power to the house when I have enough battery to turn on the inverter and then back to grid when the battery runs low / inverter turns off. The limitation with a system like this is thatI can't sell any excess back to the power companybecause I'm not connected to the grid.... but that's OK as my home consumes more than I can make.

I agree that it has taken a bit more than just 'out of the box' to get things setup, run proper wiring, etc... and I'mnot saying this will work for you - but Iwanted to point out that it is indeed possible to be offgrid (even in the city)with some limitations.
Click to expand...
The GTIL2 does not need automatic transfer switches. If theres pv power it uses that, if theres not enough pv power it uses batteries and the available pv. If pv and battery isnt enough to fully supply the loads the Grid power is also used to supply the rest of the power the loads need. However if the grid power is down from a storm etc. then an automatic transfer switch or a manual switch can be used to switch to an offgrid inverter because a grid tie inverter will not work if the grid isnt working.
 
Its primary intention is like anygrid-tie inverter to feed everything from the solar to the grid ;)

You can always use stuff in other combinations or to other things. For instance I can use my car for sleaping inside but its not really ment for it :p
Example 2: You can use a wrench for banging onto nails as well :)

Its a normal grit-tie inverter. The only difference between that one and some others is that the "max" push settings is open for the user meanwhile most of them have the closed.

When i say wrong i mean the intention for it. It was built to do 1 thing but people started using it somewhat different.

The GTIL does not make a hybrid solution work seamlessly. You need a hybrid system for that that takes care about both charging and all those things. The GTIL is pretty darn stupid device in that sense and you need to add a lot of things. Not to forget. Its ILLEGAL in most countries ;)
 
daromer said:
Its primary intention is like anygrid-tie inverter to feed everything from the solar to the grid ;)

You can always use stuff in other combinations or to other things. For instance I can use my car for sleaping inside but its not really ment for it :p
Example 2: You can use a wrench for banging onto nails as well :)

Its a normal grit-tie inverter. The only difference between that one and some others is that the "max" push settings is open for the user meanwhile most of them have the closed.

When i say wrong i mean the intention for it. It was built to do 1 thing but people started using it somewhat different.
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The GTIL2 are meant to be used exactly how I use it. They are grid tie inverters that are meant to be powered by a battery or pv or both
 
How do you connect both at same time?

As i said there is no magic over the GTIL2 as such. Its just a grid-tie inverter with only one extra function and thats you can controll the current. Thats how every grid tie inverter basically works.


edit: But no i dont think you find a small inverter like the GTIL2 as such. You need to go bigger or more expensive
 
daromer said:
How do you connect both at same time?

As i said there is no magic over the GTIL2 as such. Its just a grid-tie inverter with only one extra function and thats you can controll the current. Thats how every grid tie inverter basically works.
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The pv is connected to a separate charge controller. The chargecontroller supplies pv power to the inverter for loads. If the loads are not using all of the available pv power then the excess charges batteries.

which other grid tie inverters can be powered by a pv and battery and still allow the grid to supply power to loads all at the same time without transfer switches or changing any settings and without shutting down because the GTIL2 stays running even if loads are over inverters max possible output
 
Any hybrid systems. I run the MPI10kW as example. I run my whole house, garage, gues house on this inverter through the load port. . This makes it fully offgrid. If not i can switch to run the houses on the grid-port instead and its combined.

On the load port it can do x kW and also let through ykW from the grid. The hybrid systems have advantage of being able to be off grid capable at same time as they are grid- compatbile and tied to the grid. Ie all surplus energy not stored in my battery banks are sent back to the grid and sold instead.

1 unit does this ALL. :)

There are several others out there that does this like the Victron mentioned earlier.
 
daromer said:
Any hybrid systems. I run the MPI10kW as example. I run my whole house, garage, gues house on this inverter through the load port. . This makes it fully offgrid. If not i can switch to run the houses on the grid-port instead and its combined.

On the load port it can do x kW and also let through ykW from the grid. The hybrid systems have advantage of being able to be off grid capable at same time as they are grid- compatbile and tied to the grid. Ie all surplus energy not stored in my battery banks are sent back to the grid and sold instead.

1 unit does this ALL. :)
Click to expand...
I thought most load ports cant handle over a 2000w load? I see it can also let the grid supply anything over x kw the load port can supply.
How much can the MPs load port supply?

When you switch the MP inverter to run on the grid port (or any port or setting) can the loads use pv first then at the same time use battery then if loads still need more power they use grid lastly at the same time as pv and battery? And charge battery (charge controller) with pv dc if loads-inverters arent using all of the available pv power, and do all of this without changing any settings or ports? And limit the inverters supply to not feed into the grid?

OffGridInTheCity said:
I'm offgrid and I don't need permission from anyone. I use automatic transfer switches to feed offgrid power to the house when I have enough battery to turn on the inverter and then back to grid when the battery runs low / inverter turns off. The limitation with a system like this is thatI can't sell any excess back to the power companybecause I'm not connected to the grid.... but that's OK as my home consumes more than I can make.

I agree that it has taken a bit more than just 'out of the box' to get things setup, run proper wiring, etc... and I'mnot saying this will work for you - but Iwanted to point out that it is indeed possible to be offgrid (even in the city)with some limitations.
Click to expand...

Awesome setup offgridinthecity! This sounds like a viable alternative for me. I do not sell to the grid now and Im fine with that. Id need to pay a fee to have their solar meter and other fees. Also in my area a nabcep certified installed must do every bit of the installation to be approved for the solar meter.

Wouldnt another limitation be the expense of needing large enough inverters to cover all of the loads?
It sure would be a lot more wiring, a grid tie inverter connects directly to the main panel.

Do you have your ATS on the main panel and your offgrid inverters wired to the main panel so u wouldnt need to have subpanels for offgrid? I know this is frowned upon but I guess with an ATS the offgrid inverters wouldnt zap lineman

Idk tho, I kinda like having the grid tie inverters running 24/7. Id have to look into the cost of it all. Im sure Id have to spend close to 4 times as much on inverters to be able to cover all of the air conditioning load in the summer oven etc possibly running at the same time. Right now I have two 2kw inverters that I let produce 1500w each which covers all of the air conditioning load when its running but if something else was on like cooking the grid would help supply power for that. If I was offgrid Id have to have enough inverter to cover all that. Probably would drain batteries faster. But I guess it would save the same amount of money:)
 
Sol-ark seems to fit the bill. It has a time of use mode that allows pv and battery to be used at the same time as grid power is used. It says minimize grid power usage which makes me assume grid can be used at the same time.
It also has a meter zero mode which zeros the grid usage without feeding into the grid. Think the meter zero mode can be used at the same time as time of use mode? If only one mode can be used at a time then this inverter doesnt do what the GTIL2 can do. I hope it does

image_kssdxo.jpg

Wow! Never mind.. It might fit the bill but the bill is really high, costs over $5000
Looking for cheaper options than that for sure;)

Still searching for a grid tie inverter that can use a 60v or under battery. And also limit its supply to the amount the loads are using. If there isnt any other inverters like the GTIL2, a setup like offgridinthecity would be my only alternative.
 
Agree about needing special equipment, permits, power company approval, specialinstallers to 'connect to the grid'. Anotherreason I went offgrid is control my own power if the grid goes down - don't want the power company telling me I can't generate power when they shut-off their grid.

>Wouldnt another limitation be the expense of needing large enough inverters to cover all of the loads?
>Im sure Id have to spend close to 4 times as much on inverters to be able to cover all of the
Don't have to cover all the loads - only enough to consume all the PV power that is generated. For example, at max spring sun I generate 80kwh in a 24hr period, and based on my day-time consumption patterns, I need a battery capable of storing35kwh for burn-off thru the night - e.g. 45kwh is consumed 'directly' as the sun is shining and 35kwh excess is consumed thru the night.

You're situation would be different, but the general principles would apply.

>Do you have your ATS on the main panel and your offgrid inverters wired to the main panel so u wouldnt need to have subpanels for offgrid?
Yes. The main panel (grid side) and my 12,000winverter (generator side) each feed50a@240v to an ATS (the box at the bottom right). The ATS feeds a regular 'generator' MTS which is hooked into the main panel. The MTS let's me switchcircuit(s) between grid and gen -and therefore control loads to which the inverter is exposed.

image_sjbulb.jpg


When the inverter turns on, the ATS contractors switch over and wa la - power is feed to home circuits. When the battery drains down the inverter goes off and automatically back to grid. This works well operationally because if the Solar system is 'off' - like when I work on things - the grid automatically takes over. So I can work on things for a day or a week with no disruption to the household :)


P.S. I've seen several youtubes on SolArks and they are definately COOL!. However, they're up there - e.g. $7000 for 12,000watts. I run 24,000watts (2 AIMS at$3500 each) and2 x SolArks would be more like $14000.
 
OffGridInTheCity said:
Agree about needing special equipment, permits, power company approval, specialinstallers to 'connect to the grid'. Anotherreason I went offgrid is control my own power if the grid goes down - don't want the power company telling me I can't generate power when they shut-off their grid.

>Wouldnt another limitation be the expense of needing large enough inverters to cover all of the loads?
>Im sure Id have to spend close to 4 times as much on inverters to be able to cover all of the
Don't have to cover all the loads - only enough to consume all the PV power that is generated. For example, at max spring sun I generate 80kwh in a 24hr period, and based on my day-time consumption patterns, I need a battery capable of storing35kwh for burn-off thru the night - e.g. 45kwh is consumed 'directly' as the sun is shining and 35kwh excess is consumed thru the night.



Wouldnt u still have to have inverters that could produce the kw needed when a lot of loads are on at once? Or do u have only some of your homes loads connected to offgrid to not overload the offgrid inverter? If loads were possibly 8kw for 5 min or 20 min etc. then inverters would have to be capable of 8kw because the grid cant help supply loads like when using a grid tie inverter.

The Solarks arent for a cheap 4-life type of fella ;) I think a grand or 2 tops for my wallet

Im still looking at victron to see if they will do like the GTIL2
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>Wouldnt u still have to have inverters that could produce the kw needed when a lot of loads are on at once? If loads were possibly 8kw at a given moment then >inverters would have to be capable of 8kw because the grid cant help supply loads like when using a grid tie inverter.
Sure - but nothing says you have to feed your inverter to the 'mains' of the house so its all or nothing - remember its 100% offgrid:)

My home has 30'ish circuits andI chosecircuit by circuit thru the MTS (Manual Transfer Switch) and wiring the subset of circuitsthat I wanted based on PV power and inverter capabilities. Under standard operations, the inverters are loaded 50-70%. This leaves room for occasional things like vacuum cleaner and power saw (at the same time) without worrying about overload. I could make it 'tighter' but I don't need to because I'm consuming 100% of PV power.

The other circuits simply remain on grid 100% of the time. The Spa and Dryer are examples of things that weren't worth buying extra inverter power to run since I don't have extra PV to run them.
 
Offgridinthecity, is the panel with all the switches on the right the MTS? So when your battery is charged the ATS sends power to the MTS. You have some of the loads-switches in the MTS switched to be powered by grid power if necessary?
 
Cheap4-life said:
Offgridinthecity, is the panel with all the switches on the right the MTS? So when your battery is charged the ATS sends power to the MTS. You have some of the loads-switches in the MTS switched to be powered by grid power if necessary?
Click to expand...
Yes. Here's a closeup of the MTS.
As an example of inverter load management -notice the Dryer is switched to LINE (e.g. 100% grid) position right now. That's because the heat pump (AC) is consuming all the PV power during the summer. In the spring and fall when theheat pump power declines andI have excess PV - the Dryer is switchedto GEN (e.g. inverter) whichhelps consume the excess PV power.

image_xgtnsq.jpg
 
The one i have do 10kw in single unit and 30kw in 3.
You can choose exactly what order to use energy. Its hybrid = bidirectonal system so the load goes where its the easiest.

A grid-tie is single way only.


Once again the GTIL is ONLY a grid tie inverter. Victron, mpp and all other have alot more complex functionality in total. The GTIL as example need to have permit to run since its connected to the grid. So is the MPI that i run :)
Grid tie is perfect for those only limiting or reducing the load and have the approval to do so. No matter if you "limit" you still need the legal approvment to connect that equipment. Atleast in all countries i know about :)
 
daromer said:
The one i have do 10kw in single unit and 30kw in 3.
You can choose exactly what order to use energy. Its hybrid = bidirectonal system so the load goes where its the easiest.

A grid-tie is single way only.


Once again the GTIL is ONLY a grid tie inverter. Victron, mpp and all other have alot more complex functionality in total. The GTIL as example need to have permit to run since its connected to the grid. So is the MPI that i run :)
Grid tie is perfect for those only limiting or reducing the load and have the approval to do so. No matter if you "limit" you still need the legal approvment to connect that equipment. Atleast in all countries i know about :)
Click to expand...

I completely agree that there is other inverters that have a lot more complex functionality in total. Things like AC-DC charging and also being an offgrid inverter are things that I do not need. I already have an offgrid inverter that I use for emergencies. I already have a charge controller to charge the battery.

Also agree that the GTIL2 is only a grid tie inverter. Difference is that it can be powered by a battery bank. Which allows the loads to use pv first battery second and grid power at the same time. This enables a user to supply all of their loads even at night and if theres spikes of power used or times when loads are really high, it is ok because the grid just handles the rest of the power needed.

It also can limit itself (like a few other inverters do) to only supply what the loads are using. This is very beneficial. The cost in my area to have a solar setup put in is astronomical. I cant install a single solar panel if I want the solar meter put on my house. The ROI was close to the time I should be ready to push up daisies. I have no choice but to have a limiting inverter so I do not need the solar meter. I am not pushing any power out of my house so its none of their business imo.

the GTIL2 can supply all of my loads 24/7 if I had enough battery. I do keep them running 24/7 (supplying all of my load) in the winter spring and fall when loads are low. I use a wood boiler for heat in winter. I supply almost all of my loads unless its summer time. Going offgrid completely (not have grid power at all) isnt an option for me because my battery-pv isnt large enough, yet. ;)

To know if the mpi is right for me I have 2 questions:
1. Can the mpi (in any mode or setting without changing settings) allow homes loads to use pv first then battery at the same time if pv isnt enough. Then if pv and battery isnt enough to fully supply the load, the grid is used to fully supply the remaining amount of the load at the same time the pv and battery is still supplying power to that load?
2. Can the mpi limit the power it supplies to only supply the amount the loads use?
 
Slimf, you wrote multiplus ii
As far as I can tell, a victron cannot work like a grid tie inverter. They can be AC coupled with a grid tie inverter. but by itself will not use pv if needed first then battery if needed secondly then grid thirdly if needed. A grid tie inverter that can be powered by a battery in addition to pv, will use power for loads in that order and at the same time. All inverters that are not grid tie cannot use grid power at the same time as pv and battery.
Please correct me if Im wrong if theres a victron that can do that ;)

OffGridInTheCity said:
Cheap4-life said:
Offgridinthecity, is the panel with all the switches on the right the MTS? So when your battery is charged the ATS sends power to the MTS. You have some of the loads-switches in the MTS switched to be powered by grid power if necessary?
Click to expand...
Yes. Here's a closeup of the MTS.
As an example of inverter load management -notice the Dryer is switched to LINE (e.g. 100% grid) position right now. That's because the heat pump (AC) is consuming all the PV power during the summer. In the spring and fall when theheat pump power declines andI have excess PV - the Dryer is switchedto GEN (e.g. inverter) whichhelps consume the excess PV power.

image_xgtnsq.jpg
Click to expand...
Very cool! Are all of the loads that you can power (by the inverters) wired into the MTS?
 
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