not sure to post about the question?

Just like the title is telling you.

For those that are wondering: i sold a lot....no...... i sold to much....but you really think i was quieting!
******** i sold 106kwh.....go do your calculations....106!!!!!kwh!!!!for a bargan.....
Anyway building up again:

My end goal is: 400kwh home storage and two electric cars with each 80kwh capacity in it.(sorry not only 18650, but they are very good for it, but we will use more lifepo4, extra znbr2 cells)(totlal close to 600kwh at the end!!!!!)
We use at max really MAX 5 kwh a day on a average 3kwh a day without ecars, in our home alone.
Sometimes i start up my woodworking machinery...?2400watts continuation?

I would like to buy some stuff, cells are not the problem(li-ion18650 or lifepo4 orboth that is)
But the inverters and ALL the electronics around it......i can not make up my mind, in this....... some planning/advice with me would be greatly appreciated.

So off grid is the rule...i wont mind to have a switch to switch to the main when needed, i really done with them.(or need them)
Battery's/accu's whatever, or solar panels no problem.....BUT:

Victron offers nice solutions but are real expensive, if they are my solution...
I am thinking about just about a charger and a bms and a converter or 3.(2 phase for conductive cooking)

https://stroomwinkel.nl/omvormer-lader/victron-omvormer-ac/victron-phoenix-omvormer-48-3000.html
Ev europe also, you will need to buy a lot of extra stuff with this one:
https://shop.gwl.eu/GridFree-Invert...ml?cur=1&listtype=search&searchparam=inverter
But the chinees seems to offer a all in one solution, but it will last 3 years?
But can do parallel and series coupling, vectron can do this also, btw
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/330...earchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

How to start?

Any help, thought, idea or what ever......would be greatly appreciated, i know vectron is expensive anditdeliverers quality.....

I hope the three links works, thanks in advance, best Igor

Have enjoyed many of your posts for a long time now and happy to help in any way I can, but....

I don't have any useful knowledge on hybrid - but many posts on this seems like it may very well be what you want. I do have a workingoff-grid + grid supplemental thru ATSs - which I'm happy to share details if it will help.

Might I suggest that astarting place would beto decidebetween hybridor off-grid +grid supplemental - or at least create clear buckets of info for these very different approaches. This will fundamentallyaffect the type of inverter / equipment you need to consider.

Barry please break out what you have written from the quote. Impossible to follow what you answered now

I would stick with lithium cells, LiFePo4 are ideal for big storage.
The ZnBr2 charge-discharge round trip is very inefficient.

+1 for the Victron chargers, inverters and battery monitor.
For BMS it's really batrium.
Build your system so it's modular. Eg i have 3x MPPT chargers from different array sections.

@Offgridinthecity,
Yes i was putting a bit to much chaos in the stew.
The system i would like to build up, would be totally off grid, so no hybrids.

It will be pretty simple i think:
Some pv panels on a mppt charger/controller.
For a example a victron bluesolar 150/35 (max 2kw at 48v) with 6 x 300wp (~33v)panels = 1.8kwh(optimistic i know)
Times? i will see what i will need.

Something like a victron phoenix 3000 or 5000va(2400w or 4000w?) inverter.

The energy storage will be a mix from lifepo4 from Winston with their bms, 18650 with Batrium and some znbr for fun
There will also be a transfer switch, so when the ess is empty we will take from the main, depending on how you connect the switch.

I am looking mainly, for a easy expendable system ready for our future incl inductive cooking and two ev's and get grid free
The parallel and series connecting of those inverters would be very handy.

If i would buy what i think i need from victron's inverters: 3x1905 euro....wow....or 6x1345, both are phoenix, one is the 5000va and the other 3000va.
I would like to start with one phase and then expand.

Then there is a very big price difference with some "Chinese" inverters that are offering charging/inverter combinations.
Pro's...money and very easy to connect/use, if one breaks it is cheap to replace.
Con's wont last as long as Victron's and have a higher self consumption.
I missed something?

Basically i am still shooting in the dark with to little tracers.
I created more chaos?
Where to start and with what?

Some numbers of the biggest consumers:
Home cinema set total of ~1,4kw
washing machine 2.2kw
machinery in the shed the heaviest one wants 2,6kw(bigger or extra condensators needed?)
Coffee machine 2kw

Future demands:
inductive cooking:7,5kw.
ev's i have not a single clue: 10kwh? but at 3 phase

For those that are curios:
Home heating/warm water: a big and very well insulated hole in the ground filled with ~5000 liters of water and on top some layer of oil.
3 panels, charger and a 48v heating element.
Plus some heat exchanger (copper tubing in-bedded in bricks)under the wood stove....but that will be a other project, i will post here.

Any idea,thought, comment or supplemental is appreciated, thanks in advance, best Igor

Maybe start with overall power. You can get around 20kwh/day with a 6kw PV array *on average*. For my situation, the 3 winter months are 20% of the power I get in summer months. The spring and fall are triple the winter months. So winter is a key situation that will affect how large a PV array you plan.

If you plan tosupplement with grid - then no problem. If you want to be 'able' to be 100% off-grid, then you need a larger winter PV array if you have space. If you size for larger winter PV array .... then you will likely have excess in other parts of the year and we're back to hybrid (or just wasting the power... which I'm coming to think is OK to maintain off-grid).

@Offgridinthecity
Explane 6kw array please, is that your array or a average array? cous i think i need a bit more than that?(in the end that is)
Or 6kwh array x 6 hours = 36kwh a day.
But instead of making the array bigger, make the storage bigger?
Or a bit of both?

My roof's that have some possibility's:
1: facing dead south: total of usable m2 = 110m2.(126m2 incl some shade early morning)
2: facing south west: total of 9 panels (1x3 pv and 1x6 pv. due to windows)
3: dead south (not really wanted) 5 pv max
4: dead east (not wanted) 5 pv max

Today ~numbers:
1: is getting sun from 0800 till 1800.
2: is getting sun from 10.00 till 1930.
3: is getting sun see 1
4:is getting sun from 0730 til 1200

For overall power:
For winter time i calculated 20% in worst case due to your(offgrid's posts and) other posts about your own findings.
My calculated ratio are based on 6 hours sun (week average) a day, 1 at 5.
So storage 5kw to start with (but need 25 kwh due to winter)
Solar 9kwh a day(6x300w=1800wx6 hours a day)
Use is: lets say 4 kw a day average.
It is easy to get 120kw of storage to go thru the month, in the situation right now we will be needing ~20kwh to start with?
Built it up per 1,8kwh.

In our new situation we probably need 80kwh a day hence 400kwh on storage--->saves us up to 1000 euro total a month incl gasoline.
I don't mind to wasted power in the summer, ac is a big drain, the left overs it is OK to be wasted, they dont want to pay then they don't have them.
Just(for the Netherlands) get rid of the cable....@Barry: witte boord criminelen...White color suits criminals.
When it will be warmer then 25C the "mining" of watts will be less anyway.
I am rambling again....sorry.

Oke one more rambling thought:
For winter time totally of grid, i am working in the construction, a trailer with 50kwh Winston cells on itand charge themwith the biggest socket,63amp at 380v? could be a solution

Thanks for reading, thoughts ideas ect are welcome.

100kwh-hunter said:

Explane 6kw array please, is that your array or a average array? cous i think i need a bit more than that?(in the end that is)

Click to expand...

An Xkw array is where X is the total of the panels. If you have 10 x 300w panels, then you have a 3000w PV array. I have 45 panels x 285w = 12,825w - e.g. rounding is a 13kwarray but I call it 12kw array because that's more accurate to actual numbers. An array will never run 100% - there are many factors of angle, sun/time-of-year, temperature. I have seen momentary 12,000wbut in spring/summer- totally perfect days - its around10kw to 10.5kw sustained according to Midnite Solar Classic reporting.
Where did the 2kw of power go you ask? - well its mostly angle of panels,time of year,and heat. In the cool spring at maximum/perfect time of year - I can get nearly 12kw.

100kwh-hunter said:

Or 6kwh array x 6 hours = 36kwh a day.
.....

For overall power:
For winter time i calculated 20% in worst case due to your(offgrid's posts and) other posts about your own findings.
My calculated ratio are based on 6 hours sun (week average) a day, 1 at 5.
So storage 5kw to start with (but need 25 kwh due to winter)
Solar 9kwh a day(6x300w=1800wx6 hours a day)
Use is: lets say 4 kw a day average.

Click to expand...

I use pvwatts (https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php ) and it's been within 10% accurate with figures I put in - basically 15% losses. The weather, temp, angle of sun - just vary so much that napkin calcs are not that useful. PVwattshas nice monthly estimates (you can derive average daily info) but also a day by day spreadsheet (for download) of the actual daily data usedto calculate the info. The daily info is eye-opening andillustrateshow wildly things vary day to day. It's international - here's Amsterdam with 6kw PV and defaults:




Notice December (lowest) shows102kwh / 31days = 3.3kwh/day on average. This info is pretty accurate in my experience and makes a great reference tool if you track your actuals against it, you can really hone in on expansion expectations.

100kwh-hunter said:

But instead ofmaking the array bigger, make the storage bigger?
Ora bit of both?

Click to expand...

If you're thinking of storing fall power for winter consumption in a battery bank? Let's say you need to cover 30days of winter with an extra (stored from fall) 3kwh/day beyond what the PV array will create.That's 90kwh of extra battery.Its cheaper(and will last 30yrs - longer than battery) tobuy additional panels for an extra 3kwh/day if you have room.

Let me try to say things this way: When I first started, I viewed the battery bank as storage - the way you are. So a bigger store will simply store up excess for future lean times. NOW - I don't view it that way. I view the battery bank as thebuffer betweenPV array input and consumption - e.g. it smooths things so you can consume all the PV will create. This is typically a *daily* cycle rather than weekly or monthly because the sun comes up each day - so you want to capture as much as you can for the day and then if you have extra, use it thru the night. This daily cycle is practical. Trying to store this week for a future week or this month for a future month is more like a utility company... and itsjust not practical in a home situation to build a utility level 'power storage system'.

This view of battery as a buffer for PV input rather than a power storage system - is what disposes me to think in terms of an extra 30 panels instead of an30kwh battery bank. Its just cheaper / more practical if you have room

100kwh-hunter said:

Use is: lets say 4 kw a day average.
It is easy to get 120kw of storage to go thru the month, in the situation right now we will be needing ~20kwh to start with?
Built it up per 1,8kwh.

Click to expand...

I'm nearing 100kwh battery bank and that's a pretty large effort for DIY. I'm 3yrs and over 1,000hrs of personal time so far


Agree totally with getting a working system up and running... and then expand bit by bit. By having even a smaller system up.... you will gain *practical*operational perspective that is just impossible to explain' easily and then you can start honing in on which ways to expand.

@offgridinthe city,
Thank you very much for your extend replay.
All is falling into place, regarding panels and storage....

I don't mean this competitive! But i accumulated 106kwh in just 10 months, oke it was a lot of work.
I was really opportunistic also, when we went away i check at forehand the bike dealers and wrote down the friendly ones..
Same for the construction, some times i saw 3 different sites in a week, and i check the local bike dealers.
I figured out a way to test them in production.(fall out race, survive of the strongest...thanks to Daromer)
Probably false pride, but i was pretty proud of it.
And bought some from degrootrecycling, very good cells i may add, probably will do it again.
Dont forget prolux.
But not those blue Chinesum cells, i figured out a thing or two to much.
I really regret selling them.....sigh..

Expansion wise: so expand what comes in the need first?
Start with 6 pv panels and 5kwh, probaly within a month or two add 6 more panels and go from there.
Yes i agree it is pretty difficult to size a system for personal use, to much differences in use, sun angle temps ect.
I agree big time on the logical thought about the sun is there every day, even if it will shine for one hour: 12 pv panels can accumulate 3kw.
6 clouded hours also 3kw?
You did a good job btw to let me focus first on the most important thing...pv and than storage.
So that is done? At least i think that is done?
With a quick surface calculation i can get max 65 pv panels on the roof dead south.
(In two years from now i can add 20 more on the south west south facing roof.)
If i need this number 65x300=15-17kw per hour...Wow Fonzie!

Pretty large numbers.

OK:
The electronics:
I was thinking in first place about the
https://shop.gwl.eu/Solar-PV-System...-with-limiter-2kW-SUN-2000G-45-90V.html?cur=1
But that would not be ideal and to weak, nice to begin with, but eventually to be offgrid, they wont be any good.
You will need some electronics extra, they dont sell complete packets, price/quality wise Victron would be a better option. for just 500 euro extra to achieve the same, with a 1000w bonus.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/330...68#1000022185#1000066058#0_668#3468#15609#204
Those ones seems appealing.(Among some other look a likes)
I could buy one at the time, and they are charger/converter in one for ~600 each.
They are around for a pretty long time, oke they say 5kw each connected to each other 10kw, lets say 60% max capacity of there advertising.

Also Victron the phoenix inverters very expensive and not to mention the amount of charge controllers i would require?
What would be the best advice
Any idea is welcome!

The filafax is a need i need to incorporate:
https://www.victronenergy.com/transfer-switches/filax-2
This only one i could find in English language with a quick search.
I intend to obtain a heavier one.
In dutch sorry:
https://stroomwinkel.nl/ve-transfer-switch-10kva-230v.html
Get 1 of them to start with.

But what kind of electronics? fuses and fuse box is no problem(ac side that is).

Thanks for reading and sharing your ideas/thought and point of view it is very appreciated, thanks in advance, best Igor

Have you considered the new PIP 7248MAX?

* 7.2 Kw
* 2 high voltage MPPT
* 8 Kw PV field
* 80 A MPPT charger and 80 A utility charger
* Paralel ready up to 6 units with built in paralel kit
* And some other goodies.


I agree Victron plays in another league but man are they expensive!!! And on top of that you have to buy the MPPT chargers.

Edit: Just remembered it is available in EU also, even a little bit cheaper at solarpower24 store. Do not know these people, never bought anything from them but buying in EU is always better than importing from China.

The pipmax is also coming from China, it would be cheaper to order that directly from ali
I dont think there is not much difference between the pip or powland or aesun and some others?

Solarpower24 have also some more interesting things:
https://www.solarpower24.it/?product=batteria-lifepo4-100ah-48-volt&lang=en

All in one: no extra bms needed, good price(quality?), easy to expand, safe?
Cheaper than buy the same in Germany or the same kwh in winston cells.

For solar panels i will stick to GWL, from solarpower24 they are just to expensive
https://shop.gwl.eu/Solar-PV-System...ls-ESM-450-Perc-Halfcut-Pack-4-pcs.html?cur=1

Thanks in advance