First repair project

micco

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Aug 7, 2018
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Hi Everyone,
I hope this is the correct section for this post...

I'm new to the scene and looking for some guidance on my first "repair project".
We have a li-ion pack for our hoover linx vacuumthat will not charge in its base. Before werecycle it, i came across info to potentially revive it.

As it sits, when i use the DMM on it, i get 0.63v - its a 18v 36 Wh unit.
From my research it may be too weak for the charger to detect and start charging, so some suggested jump starting with a high voltage unit to get it up to 4v-ish.
So, i pulled out an old 24v NiCd battery and hooked it up in parallel for ~30 min, came back and it really didn't change the stats when metered.

Any thoughts or next steps to try?

thanks!
 
How did you do that? By shorting the packs together? That can basically destroy both packs instead...

You need a regulated voltage source and if you have built in BMS or protection in the battery you need to bypass it and charge each cell yet alone instead. Il post a video tonight about how to do that.
 
You'll need to open the hoover linx pack & measure the voltage of each cell.
Also please let us know if it has a circuit board (a BMS) inside.
 
Reviving a battery "externally" will hardly work if it has issues. If it's showing 0.63V and won't charge then there is obviously something wrong and it won't be solved by connecting another battery in parallel. That probably did nothing anyway because of the BMS that is usually integrated in these devices/batteries.

You have to take it apart and find out what the problem is so that you can actually solve the problem rather then mitigating the symptoms.
 
sounds good guys, i'm learning!
ok just opened, yup theres a board, with 5 samsung 18650 cells
 
Measure the voltage across each individual cell to find out if there are issues with the cells. If they are healthy it could be a BMS issue.
 
DarkRaven said:
Measure the voltage across each individual cell to find out if there are issues with the cells. If they are healthy it could be a BMS issue.

each cell is 0.4 v
 
Sounds to me like the battery sat for a long time without any use and the bms slowly discharged the battery. Once the battery gets below a certain voltage, 2 things happen. 1) the bms won't allow you to charge 2) the bms "can't" allow you to charge because it can't open the FETs.

I would say put a hobby charger on them with the balance leads and let it charge up. If you don't have one of those and have a TP4056 or other single cell charger, connect and charge each parallel group with the charger individually (or with separate chargers; don't use an opus and wire in with alligator clips all 4s, you might blow the opus up) as they need to be electrically isolated. I would go with the single charging of each cell.
You only need to charge them up to about 2.5V each for the bms to kick on. You may find there is nothing wrong with the pack at all.

If after charging them up and the pack voltage is at least about 8+V and the bms still doesn't activate, it might have an internal kill switch that once it's flipped, can't be flipped back. If that's the case, you'd need to get a new bms board as these are not easy to tap into and reprogram.
 
Korishan said:
Sounds to me like the battery sat for a long time without any use and the bms slowly discharged the battery. Once the battery gets below a certain voltage, 2 things happen. 1) the bms won't allow you to charge 2) the bms "can't" allow you to charge because it can't open the FETs.

I would say put a hobby charger on them with the balance leads and let it charge up. If you don't have one of those and have a TP4056 or other single cell charger, connect and charge each parallel group with the charger individually (or with separate chargers; don't use an opus and wire in with alligator clips all 4s, you might blow the opus up) as they need to be electrically isolated. I would go with the single charging of each cell.
You only need to charge them up to about 2.5V each for the bms to kick on. You may find there is nothing wrong with the pack at all.

If after charging them up and the pack voltage is at least about 8+V and the bms still doesn't activate, it might have an internal kill switch that once it's flipped, can't be flipped back. If that's the case, you'd need to get a new bms board as these are not easy to tap into and reprogram.

Thank you for the response, i appreciate it. The voltage being too low is what i read as well elsewhere, hence trying to bring it up via hooking it to a high power source in parallel. However, as mentioned, it did nothing; and even could have caused damage as per another member.

Since i'm literally a newbie to a lot of this and wanting to be safe, i'll have to research what you said to ensure i understand:)

Would i have to remove each cell from the block to charge?
There's foam on each side terminal side, so i'll have to remove it and see if the cells are easily removable.

I don't have any charges yet, other then the typical DC vehicle charges and AA/AAA Mi-MH chargers.
From what I've read so far, i'm thinking of getting a IMAX B6 charger, which is what i believe you refer to as a hobby charger.
I found one on amazon Canada for ~50 CAD shipped, with decent reviews.
Not sure if i can post links, but its desc is "lemonbest New Universal iMAX B6-AC B6AC Lipo NiMH 3S RC Battery Balance Charger"

Again thanks, and any info/direction on a good beginner kit would be appreciated.
 
No, you do not have to dis assemble the pack to charge each parallel set. You will however have to find a way to attach the charge to them. If required I can post some photos of an example. However, please post a photo of the inside of your pack, so I can illustrate for you.

The IMAX B6 you are looking at is most likely a clone. There are many good clones out there, and also many bad ones. It depends on how serious you are. You will never regret buying a decent charger. However an iCharger and power supply will cost quite a penny. I can recommend many budget options.

I own many cheap chargers, they are good, but you must understand that they all do have shortcomings. I recently bought a Charsoon Antimatter off Aliexpress. It is most excellent. Not quite an iCharger, but definitely close.

Owning a decent multi chemistry (aka RC charger) is incredibly handy, they can charge virtually anything. In the case of reviving dead LiIon batteries, they are perfect. I use the NiMh charge, at about 50ma per cell to 'awaken the dead'. However, you do want to keep a careful eye. Make sure noting gets hot, and always prepare for the worst.
 
If you have the pack open, you can probably use a 15V plug pack & a 10 ohm resistor to get some charge into the cells.
You would find the -ve end and the +ve ends of the pack & connect the above plug pack to those points & charge until your meter says they are approx 3V .
This should safely get the cells to ~3V each.
The original charger & built in BMS board can then take over & charge like "normal".
 
The best method to revive undervoltage cells is a lab power supply. Even RC chargers often won't do it if the cell is below a certain threshold. And the tresholds vary from device to device but 0.4V is certainly below all of them. As Geek said, using NiMh or NiCd setting on a RC charger might do the trick because the chargers usually don't do any voltage comparisons in these modes unlike in lithium modes.

However, as I said, I prefer using a lab power supply for these purposes. Doesn't have to be an expensive one, like a professional bench unit, a DC-DC converter with CC/CV functionality is basically the same and can be well below 10 EUR or USD or whatever your currency is. But then again, it depends on how serious you want to get in the future and what your budget is. It might be worth to spend a bit more straight away. For example, the Ruideng (RD) DPS and DPH series of DC-DC converters are designed to double as lab power supplies. They come with a display and a proper interface to provide a more comfortable user experience. They are more expensive than a simple DC-DC converter but still much cheaper than a lab power supply. However they don't run on AC, you need a DC supply. Could be a battery or a DC power supply so you need one of those as well if you haven't got something suitable yet.

As with most hobbies there is a certain initial investment needed :)

You could also combine certain investments. Many RC chargers are designed to run on DC. You could get one suitable DC power supply for the charger and the DC-DC converter power supply at the same time. For example I have a 350W and a 1kW 48V supply for my iCharger and the RD DPS and DPH units I use and also some LiPo batteries which I could use. And I use these batteries for the TS100 soldering iron as well as my battery spotwelder.
 
Wow thanks for all the info folks, much appreciated.

Any links to products to consider would be helpful - i have not issue investing a reasonable amount into a good charging unit.
I also have a couple 350w/500w computer PSU units, which i've used to test electronics in the past (12v rail). not sure if there's a use case of it here?

Attached are the front and back of the unit.


image_nrfrhb.jpg

image_vhfkfr.jpg
 
Ok, so on the back side of the PCB you have the connections for each individual cell called J100 to J105 and also the nickel tabs going down to each cell. You can now attach croc clips to the tabs or the solder joins. Or temporarily solder wires to either of them. If you had the equipment you then would charge each cell individually back up to a healthy voltage, let's say 3V, to see if the BMS starts working again.

I will give some advice on and links to certain pieces of equipment later, at the moment I'm building a frame for a solar panel :D
 
Sorry, I was busy, but here we go!

To do maintenance, fixing and all sort of DIY stuff with batteries certain devices are necessary, mandatory even, and some others are helpful. All of them exist in different price ranges.

1. Multi-Chemistry Charger / Smart Charger / Hobby Charger / RC Charger / ...

Different words for the same thing, a charger for all kinds of batteries you can possibly come across. While lithium is certainly the main thing here they also support Lead Acid (SLA/LA/PB) and Nickel Metal Hydride / Cadmium (NiMh/NiCd). For lithium batteries they have an integrated balancer. Many support three lithium variants, LiIon, LiPo and LiFe. I'm not sure where LiIon comes from as this mode is usually preset to a end of charge voltage of 4.1V per cell (Vpc). I can only assume that there used to be lithium batteries that used this lower end of charge voltage. But it is still useful to charge lithium batteries not all the way to extend their cycle life on chargers that don't offer adjustable voltages. LiPo then is the general lithium mode for the usual 4.2Vpc and LiFe is for LFP/LiFePO/LiFePO4 with 3.6 or 3.65Vpc.

LA, NiMh/NiCd, LiIon/LiPo/LiFe is the minimum every device should support, some higher end devices might have adjustable programming to support lithium titanate / LTO (2.4Vpc) or offer a separate mode for LTO by default.
Also all of them offer a discharge/test function but the discharge power is often very limited. Higher discharge power needs a bigger heatsink so this is usually directly connected to the size of the device.

Companies/Brands to look for: Junsi/iCharger, SkyRC, EV-Peak, Hitec, ...
All of them offer a range of products and are generally high quality. You might find suspiciously identical looking devices under different brands. That's because there is an OEM building them and putting different labels on but the devices are the same.

Cheap: IMAX B6ACv2 (DC and AC, built in power supply), IMAX B6 Mini (DC only) or one of their clones
Although some clones are better than others I generally advise to buy the real stuff and not the cloned devices.
The IMAX B6 are small units with a balancer for up to six cells, the charging power is limited to 50W or 5A/6A, whatever comes first. Discharge power is very small, only 5W.
Prices might vary from country to country, generally I'd say around 50 EUR for the real ones.

Not so cheap anymore: Lots of devices are available, for example certain iChargers (1- and 2-series), SkyRC D250/D400, EV-Peak A8, ...
They basically do everything the smaller units do but just more of it. Higher currents, more charging power, more discharging power, balancer for more than six cells (usually seven and eight). Also many feature a dual port design to work with two different batteries at the same time. Most of them run on DC, but there are also some with an integrated power supply to operate on AC. Some of them might offer advanced features like regenerative discharge (discharge a battery into another battery or into the power source of the charger, if it's a battery)
Prices up to 200 EUR, more or less.

Not cheap at all: iChargers (3- and 4-series) up to the biggest one, 4010, and just very few others like the Pulsar 3/3+
They do all of what has been mentioned before and again more of it. Bigger balancer (eight and ten cells and more), more power, higher currents, more access to the inner workings to change all parameters, create own charging programs and so on.
300 EUR and more, much more...

2. Charger/Discharger/Tester for cylindrical cells

Like the chargers above, but not for entire batteries. Instead they take single cylindrical cells, usually four. Often limited to NiMh/NiCd and lithium cells, often 4.2Vpc exclusively for lithium (so no LFP, no LTO). No LA because there are no small cyclindrical LA cells. Some support NiZn, but that's as rare as the batteries. NiZn is not very important as of now.
Biggest cell possible is usually 26650, some might also take 32650/32700, but either of them usually not in all slots at the same time because of the larger diameter.

Cheap: Usually the ones that only do charging. These come from the flashlight (and nowadays vaping) community like the Nitecore D4. Prices are around 20 EUR.

Not so cheap anymore: The Opus BT-C3100 which is very popular among the DIY community because it can discharge and test four 18650s at the same time. Costs between 30 and 50 EUR, depends on the store of your choice.

Not cheap at all: SkyRC MC3000, like the Opus but much better quality and much more features (configurable settings). Earlier they were available for 60-70 EUR (China) to 100 EUR (everywhere else) but it seems that everyone raised the prices so it's more like 80-100 EUR now.

3. Lab Power Supply / DC-DC converter with CC/CV

Unlike the chargers they can put out any voltage you like (within reason and their specs) and with CC/CV function they can be used to charge cells or batteries. But unlike chargers there is no automatic cutoff so you have to manually stop the process. Because they aren't chargers and don't have any intelligence built in they do what you want. But that also means there are no safety mechanisms in place. This is useful for reviving overdischarged cells, for example.

Cheap: Any chinese DC-DC converter from eBay, Amazon, Banggood, Gearbest, Aliexpress, you name it. Many are under 10 EUR, some might be a bit more expensive depending on power and the store you buy at. Run on DC only.

No so cheap anymore: Ruideng DPS (Buck) and DPH (Boost) units. You can find them at their store at Aliexpress directly from the manufacturer but many 3rd party stores sell them as well, at higher prices. They offer them with various specs and they come with a display for ease of use. Case are also available. Costs between 25 and 50 EUR depending on the model, excluding a case. Run ony DC only.

Not cheap at all: Any semi-professional or professional lab power supply / bench power supply. Overkill for most DIY applications. Might become worth it if your diving deep into electronics. Usually run on AC only.

4. (AC) Power Supply for the DC units (like chargers and DC-DC converters)
You can run them on DC from batteries or your solar system, or from an AC supply to run them from the grid.

Cheap: Existing solar system / battery to run them from DC, alternatively an old ATX computer supply (the 12V rail is a decent start)

Not so cheap anymore: Dedicated AC supply for a fixed DC voltage. Cheap ones from China start around 20 EUR.

Not cheap at all: Industrial DC power supplies, Mean Well is one of the biggest names in the business. Also Seasonic and Mascot, just to name a few. Industrial could also mean IT, especially telecommunications. Especially telco stuff often runs on 48V so there might be specialized units for this use case that we could use as well. If you can find them at a store or company that is being liquidated it might even be cheap but that's rare.

5. Soldering iron / Spotwelder

If you have no soldering iron yet it might be the right time to get one. Sooner or later you will have to solder something. I'd skip the cheap options here, a cheap USB-powered soldering iron is no fun. Get either one of the better ones (TS80) or its bigger brother TS100. The TS100 isn't USB-powered anymore, but runs directly on 12V-24V DC. Both of them are also a good choice if you want the soldering iron to be portable. The TS80 can run from a powerbank but needs QC3.0 support, the TS100 runs from any battery within its voltage range (ideally 6s lithium).
For a stationary unit I'd recommend one from Hakko, like the FX-888/FX-888d.

A spotwelder is purely optional at this stage. There are the Sunkko units from China, they are based on a transformer and are generally not the best quality but get the job done. They run on AC and have a tendency to trip your breakers if your installation is a bit on the weak side. You can also build your own based on the transformer from a microwave oven if you know what you are doing.
The alternative is a DC powered spotwelder. They usually use MOSFETs to switch the short circuit current of a battery like a LA battery or a RC LiPo battery. I prefer these over the cheap AC units. There are decent AC units available but they are professional and very expensive equipment.
A spotwelder might become a thing if you start making your own batteries using nickel strip.

I think that's it for a start. I've given you lots of names to look for, check your local stores or on the internet that send to your place. Addionally you will need cables and stuff but you'll find out what exactly as you go along. It depends on what you want to do so it's hard to give some sound advice.
A digital multi meter / DMM should also be on this list but as you could measure the voltage of the cells I guess you have one already. But for anyone reading this who is interested in this as well, the cheap solution is a Uni-T while the not so cheap solution is obviously a Fluke.

All of this is based on my personal experiences, there might be other options I haven't mentioned here.
 
DarkRaven said:
Ok, so on the back side of the PCB you have the connections for each individual cell called J100 to J105 and also the nickel tabs going down to each cell. You can now attach croc clips to the tabs or the solder joins. Or temporarily solder wires to either of them. If you had the equipment you then would charge each cell individually back up to a healthy voltage, let's say 3V, to see if the BMS starts working again.

I will give some advice on and links to certain pieces of equipment later, at the moment I'm building a frame for a solar panel :D

Thank you very much for the advice and starter equipment options!
The cell pack look to be hooked up in series, so each lead from the PCB would be + to -, would charging be from J100 to J105 start of series to end?

Here is the unit i previously mentioned -IMAX B6
image_yuzskr.jpg
 
Yes sure, the cells are in series. Not sure what you mean though. You could charge all cells at once by using J100 and J105 and it might work in this case but I generally don't recommend it. Charge every cell individually so cell #1 is between J100 and J101, cell #2 is between J101 and J102 and so on.

However, as we've established, it's not possible with the IMAX B6 you've linked to. 0.4V is too low and it will give you an error. Generally it is the earlier version B6AC, there is an updated version B6ACv2. The features are the same as far as I know but the new one isn't more expensive so better get the newer v2.
 
oh ok, i didn't realize it couldn't charge a low cell.

So the v2 would be charge the cells and set me up for future projects (beginner)?
such as this SKYRCBCACv2
 
It could, but only in NiMh/NiCd mode which isn't ideal. It can't in lithium mode. And it's the same for the v2 and any other charger. They are only suitable for healthy cells. To charge undervoltage cells you need a lab power supply / DC-DC converter with CC/CV.
 
DarkRaven said:
It could, but only in NiMh/NiCd mode which isn't ideal. It can't in lithium mode. And it's the same for the v2 and any other charger. They are only suitable for healthy cells. To charge undervoltage cells you need a lab power supply / DC-DC converter with CC/CV.

Oh ok i misread things, thanks for clarifying.
So for the sake of reviving my li-ion pack i need a power supply. I do have an only ATX 350w PSU i was going to convert to a bench unit - but mostly to test car audio equipment.
So from the sounds of things i can maybe use it to charge each cell, get it up to 3v and try the originally charger again?


Maybe converting the PSU over and getting the B6charger would be a good start - sadly i'll need to spend time converting the PSU, putting the vacuum battery on the back burner.

If i recall, there are 3, 5 and 12v rails that can be used from the PSU.
How would you suggest the safest way to charge each cell with the PSU?


cheers
 
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