Fusible Wire and Molten Metal

skyfridge

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Fusible wire appears to be the most economical means of fusing individual cells in packs with high cell counts. However, for the fuse to function as intended, the metal must melt. This introduces the risk of fire and the risk of shorting from the positive terminal to the can.

What thin, lightweight and inexpensive fire-resistantmaterials might be used between the fuse and the battery or between the fuse and any flammable material to mitigate the risks?
 
I dont have answer to your question directly but the amount of energy released on a dead short will melt them off that fast that it wont cause any fire.
But if we talk about long time glowing fuse wire that "could" happen... Then you need any material that cannot burn frankly.

Like normal metal casings and surroundings will work :)
 
daromer said:
I dont have answer to your question directly but the amount of energy released on a dead short will melt them off that fast that it wont cause any fire.
But if we talk about long time glowing fuse wire that "could" happen... Then you need any material that cannot burn frankly.

Like normal metal casings and surroundings will work :)
Most DIY packs have the cells laying on their sides,which mitigates the risk of the burnt fuse landing on either cell between the terminals.What happens if the cells are upright? Then there is a risk of burning through the insulating disk and shorting the cell from positive to the can.

Sure, it happens quickly. Sure, the energy is relatively small. How much energy is in a hot ash? It still can starta forrest fire. The temperature at which metal melts is very hot, and the mass is greater than that of a hot ash.

Everything burns. Plastic is flammable, though someplastics are more fire resistant than others. A plastic bag is going to burn more quickly than a plastic battery holder with more mass to surface area.Steel wool will burn, due to a combination of factors.

I'm merely looking at all of the angles. I was planning to use a metal enclosure, which eliminates the risk to the enclosure. Plastic might be resistant enough for making holders. Perhaps the fuses can be isolated from the cell terminals by the holders.
 
I have done several tests and i did not even get it to burn through the plastic. Yes it melted somewhat but not more :) On paper its more likely to happen. I did some tests on that earlier and i got a small burn mark and not more on normal short. But i hope no one have paper or that light material. Also keep the forest out of the picture since we dont have (I hope not) dry grass and other stuff where we have our batteries. Note that ashes burns different compare to a wire this thin. An ash-particle can be burning for seconds or even minutes.

Igniting the plastic or a proper shelf is not as easy as paper nor dry grass.

With that said there is of course a risk but the risk is tiny. And if you are afraid of it either go full metal. Dont forget to remove the plastic on the cells too... Or go with glass-fuses :)

Another sidenote: on all my tests i have not once got the wire to melt on 2 spots = falling off. It was always left on the battery or the fuse-bar. Feel free to test.
 
daromer said:
...

Another sidenote: on all my tests i have not once got the wire to melt on 2 spots = falling off. It was always left on the battery or the fuse-bar. Feel free to test.

Thanks. I wondered how much of the wire might separate. I haven't progessedfar enough to do those kinds of tests. I was forced to take a breakfrom the project to rewire my existing solar setup before the weather warmed up too much, because I had undersized the wiring in a pinch when I installed new equipment several weeks ago.

With your input, I feel a little better about using fusible wire.
 
Even though my test yield one type of result yours may show different. But so far im pretty confident.. Even though its not 100% :)

Yes sun is comming here to so im stressing. 6kw going into battery bank right now :D
 
The answer is to use low melting metals for the fuse wire .... tesla uses aluminium (not easy to solder ) ...some fuses are made from lead and tin .. these all melt below the temperature a fire could be ignited ....

Has anyone experimented using solder (flux core or solid should work) as fuse wire , available in many sizes ...

I will not be using fuses ... electric bikes don't have them on their battery packs .. I believe it was a publicity stunt by tesla to alleviate public concern resulting from bogus law suits .... tesla claims any problems were the result of misuse of their product.
 
ozz93666 said:
The answer is to use low melting metals for the fuse wire .... tesla uses aluminium (not easy to solder ) ...some fuses are made from lead and tin .. these all melt below the temperature a fire could be ignited ....

Has anyone experimented using solder (flux core or solid should work) as fuse wire , available in many sizes ...

I will not be using fuses ... electric bikes don't have them on their battery packs .. I believe it was a publicity stunt by tesla to alleviate public concern resulting from bogus law suits .... tesla claims any problems were the result of misuse of their product.

There is a video here in the BMS thread, where a nut was dropped and caused a short. The cells were individually fused, and all of the fuses on one pack blew. The incident in the videomakes a pretty convincng case for individually fused cells. Stay safe.
 
ozz93666 said:
I will not be using fuses ... electric bikes don't have them on their battery packs .. I believe it was a publicity stunt by tesla to alleviate public concern resulting from bogus law suits .... tesla claims any problems were the result of misuse of their product.

The safety features Tesla include in their packs (which go beyond just fuses), are the results of problems they found in their vehicles. This includes several fires in their testing facilities. For those unaware they have battery packs that are wired up to be charged and discharged 24/7 to find out how their batteries behave long term.
 
I deliberately shorted out a fused 18p experimental bank of cells I retired from ebike use years ago and all the fuse wires`but two that were on really questionable cells have little sections near the middle gone..



image_snavag.jpg


Kind of neat actually, I was impressed at how well the fuse wires did their job.


ozz93666 said:
Has anyone experimented using solder (flux core or solid should work) as fuse wire , available in many sizes ...

Not to be nitpicky or anything but how does one go about soldering solder?
 
I suppose if anyone was willing to try it, zinc wire may be suitable, it can be soldered,has a melting point only a touch higher than solder, and is more conductive than nickel,

The other thing to note is most fuses already have a intended failure point towards the center of the fuse, its where the cutting machine for mass production holds it when it cuts, leaving it a tiny bit smaller.
 
Soldering anything with a melting point close to that of solder to something that's as big a heatsink as an 18650 cell is going to be damn near impossible with an iron. It could probably be done with a micro torch but you'll have to heat the cell up a lot before you ever touch the zinc wire to it or else the zinc will melt while the cell stays well below the melting point of the solder.

I'd do a lot of practicing on dud cells before I tried that on a good one.

BTW, I haven't forgotten about the discharger software rewrite, I have other things I need to get done before I'll have time to seriously concentrate on that. Summer is coming and living off grid down here dealing with the heat is a serious challenge.
 
Elmo said:
Soldering anything with a melting point close to that of solder to something that's as big a heatsink as an 18650 cell is going to be damn near impossible with an iron. It could probably be done with a micro torch but you'll have to heat the cell up a lot before you ever touch the zinc wire to it or else the zinc will melt while the cell stays well below the melting point of the solder.

I'd do a lot of practicing on dud cells before I tried that on a good one.


What I have found is that pure lead wire works pretty well as a fuse and can be soldered. Its finicky, but can be done. It melts barely above lead/tin solder and can be had in nice sizes. My first tests show that a .015" lead wire will trip at 6-7A.

My thoughts on the conductivity of fuse material is that it doesn't make any difference. My reasoning is that we care about the energy that is being dissipated by that fuse (piece of wire) in relation to that metals melting point. In order to blow a fuse, you obviously need to heat that metal to its melting point and the energy to do so is directly linked to the temperature at which at it melts. For example, copper melts at a relatively high point, and lead at a low one. Heat dissipation is proportional to the difference in temperatures between the two items. In our case, the fuse gets hot, and the air and batteries themselves absorb that heat.

Now for the sake of example and reasoning, I will be making some general statements such just as I did with saying lead melts at a lower temperature than copper. At this point I don't care exactly how much lower, just that it is lower.

For our copper fuse lets say that it takes 2 watts of energy to heat that wire up to its melting point at that it happened at exactly 10 amps. since W/A=I that gives me a voltage drop of 0.2V across that fuse for a resistance of 0.02 Ohms.

Now since lead melts at a lower temperature, it may only take 1 watt to heat a lead fuse of the same length to its melting point. In our imaginary test this also happened at exactly 10 amps giving us a voltage drop of 0.1V and resistance of .01 Ohms.

But wait, based on the above, the lead fuse would have to have a lower resistance than the copper one. And copper is more conductive than lead which is the opposite of what we need. Lets make this simple and say that copper is twice as conductive. The math for resistance is easy. Its just cross sectional area X Length X a conductivity constant for that metal. Our example fuses are of equal length so that can be removed. So to get half the resistance, with a metal that's half as conductive, I just need a wire with 4X the cross sectional area. So to conclude that, if my wire is not as conductive, just use a bigger one.

Besides not glowing red hot, low melting point fuses also help reduce power loss. Since we don't need as high of resistance to generate the heat required to melt the fuse. the energy lost due to fuse resistance lowers.

For example, lets say we have a 14S 100P pack, and we want to draw 2800w from it. lets assume we are at 4.0v per cell which means we need 50A from the pack, spread over 100P that's 0.5A per cell

Power(W) = Resistance (R) x Current (I)^2

Example 1: copper fuse 0.02 Ohms
0.02 X 0.5^2 = 0.005W per cell

Example 2: Lead fuse 0.01 Ohms
0.01 X 0.5^2 = 0.0025W per cell


so 0.0025W, who cares right? well take that per cell we have (1400) and now we get a loss of 7W in the Copper fused pack and 3.5W in the Lead pack. You may not care, but this is the kind of stuff I care about.

As a brand new member(but lurker) feel free to ignore my rambles until I show my tests, setup, and exact math

Remember, this is dead reckoning, not exact figures
 
Us old timers who have been here for a whole month resemble you n00bs coming in and trying to take the place over.. ;)

Seriously, I have no problem with you at all, your response sounds reasonable although I haven't had time to digest the numbers properly yet.

About 2/3 of a lifetime ago I soldered on pewter antiques professionally and had a few meltdown disasters that were truly a bear to recover from. Thin wall cast figurines were the worst...
 
ozz93666 said:
Has anyone experimented using solder (flux core or solid should work) as fuse wire , available in many sizes ...

I did find a video the other day of someone who tried using flux core solder as a fuse, it makes a huge mess.
Vaporised flux leaves a big black stain, so you'd end up having to dismantle to pack anyway to clean it.
 
Rerouter said:
I suppose if anyone was willing to try it, zinc wire may be suitable, it can be soldered,has a melting point only a touch higher than solder, and is more conductive than nickel,

The other thing to note is most fuses already have a intended failure point towards the center of the fuse, its where the cutting machine for mass production holds it when it cuts, leaving it a tiny bit smaller.

The trouble with zinc is it oxidises in (moist) air , it is use to protect steel (galvanizing), but doesn't last very long ,so over time , particularly at the elevated temperatures fuses experience ,the zinc will oxidise , and the fuses resistance will increase , reducing the current at which it fails ...

For this same reason copper can't be used .... tinned copper wire can .


C11MAN said:
My thoughts on the conductivity of fuse material is that it doesn't make any difference...... , this is dead reckoning, not exact figures

Nice analysis ... Just a few more thoughts .....resistance of all metals increases with temp ... not all at the same rate , this makes things complicated ... and with lead we again have oxidation problems ... it does oxidise quickly which I think will make it unsuitable ....

I'm sure tesla has brainstormed all this before us ....they usealuminium , low MPt ...doesn't age (oxidise) .... cheap ... available ... but not solderable with normal lead/tin solder .... Many years ago i did find some solder that soldered Al ...not sure if it's still available , it was expensive , flux cored , melted with a soldering iron but at slightly higher temp than lead/tin.


station240 said:
ozz93666 said:
Has anyone experimented using solder (flux core or solid should work) as fuse wire , available in many sizes ...

I did find a video the other day of someone who tried using flux core solder as a fuse, it makes a huge mess.
Vaporised flux leaves a big black stain, so you'd end up having to dismantle to pack anyway to clean it.

Interesting.... This mess could have some advantage ... it would be a clear visual indication that a fuse had blown ...

But soldering solder could be tricky!
 
Flux core solder no less... :rolleyes:

Changing gears.. (pointless in an electric but I'm old school)

Conductive epoxy?

If you make the connection nicely intimate with a clamp arrangement on top of conductive epoxy until it sets you might get a good connection.

I've never used it myself, I'm just throwing the idea out there.

https://www.amazon.com/Resist-Elect...&sr=8-2-spons&keywords=conductive+epoxy&psc=1

GENERAL PROPERTIES: Appearance Silver Cure Type Heat cure or Room temperature Benefits High strength Perfect bond EMI & RFI shielding Cold solder Substrates Excellent choice aluminum, copper, magnesium, steel, bronze, nickel, kovar, ceramic, glass, phenolic and G-10 epoxy glass boards. UNCURED PROPERTIES: Viscosity At 25 C cps Paste Silver coated ceramic , % 50-75 Pot Life At 25 C 30 minutes CURE SCHEDULE: 15 minutes At 100 C 30 minutes At 60 C 24 hours At 25 C MISC PROPERTIES: Volume Resistivity Less than 0.0015 Hardness, Shore D 81 Compressive Strength, psi 13,600
And one more thing, metals like zinc, lead, copper, silver and so on can be protected fairly easily with a clear coat. Spray wheel paint clear you get at the auto parts store works well, I've forgotten the brand I use but it's some of the best spray can clear I've seen. Tough, transparent if applied properlty and relatively forgiving for a clear coat. It should last a long time in the (hopefully) protected environment of a powerwall.
 
Elmo said:
Flux core solder no less... :rolleyes:

Changing gears.. (pointless in an electric but I'm old school)

Conductive epoxy?

I bought some of this from eBay a while a go (search 'conductive glue') .... it was a joke !! could just get a few mA through it to light a small led .... It's just epoxy with metal or carbon powder mixedin , probably about 1,000 more resistive than copper ...and I do mean a 1000 times ...totally unsuitable.
 
Same is true for the conductive 3D printer filament, it's only suitable for leds and resistive touch switches.

In theory you could drip molten metal instead of soldering. In reality it would thermal shock or not bond to the cell end, plus setting the cell wrapping on fire is rather likely. If only aluminium were easier to weld.
 
IF you guys are relly concered about it you coudl aways do what they do with HRC fuses suround the fuse in silica sand to absorbe the explosion. maybe heat shrink, and filled sand and shurnk tight around wire? Woudl probbly be really finiky though.

Open one of theses types of fuses if you dont know what i am referign too with regards to sand.

image_zhyjjt.jpg
 
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