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Really frustrating Batrium experience!
#21
Sean: For all systems that I use yes (4). And I was targeted with VAT/Import taxes on 3 of those (30% extra). So no im not paid to say its the best product in the world. They have their flaws and there is many other systems to choose of. But for me it have worked as I expected so far. Perhaps lucky?
The Ultimate DIY Solar and build place
YouTube / Forum system setup / My webpage  Diy Tech & Repairs

Current: 10kW Mpp Hybrid | 4kW PIP4048 | 2x PCM60x | 83kWh LiFePo4 | 10kWh 14s 18650 |  66*260W Poly
Upcoming: 14S 18650~30kWh | Automatic trip breakers, and alot more
#22
I am more positive than negative with Batrium - maybe 66 pos, 33% neg - and understand the frustrations.
I purchased retail / full price watchmon 4, expansion board, and 56 longsmongs. Over $1000.

First, the pros from my experience:
0) Received product, longmons promptly and good support for my purchase.
1) Product WORKS extremely well for my own DIY 18650 battery bank w/42 longmons - and by extension should work fine for other 'mons'.
2) Product is FEATURE RICH and delightful in that regard.
3) The hardware quality seems fine.
4) Support has answered my important questions ... 1) I had trouble with longmon network because I didn't twist the wires (my fault but they helped me) and 2) Innapropriate Shunt settings caused Shunt + Page to 'freeze' (stop reporting anything and they helped).

Negative
1) Agree - no downloadable PDF, but rather a rambling/unorganized/dissociated web site. The website / info is pretty much 'echo the dialog' quality (e.g. field says "Enter AH:" and help says "Enter AH" - but there's no deeper explanation as to how this entry affects others. No overall architecture / understanding.
2) On each successful help episode above - I've been prompted to PAY FOR HELP SESSION if I want to understand what I've purchased. This might explain the unhelpful web site.
3) Software is a little bit buggy - not the best for $1000+ price tag.
- Asked several times with promise of answer but never got an answer as to why "Tools - Snapshot reporting" Every 1min and every 30sec options *do not work*. Every 5 min (or longer) are the only ones that work.

Future Problem:
I'd like to use extension board and/or watchmon 4 to affect external relay - but I'm not an electronics person. I understand wiring batteries in parallel/series BUT I don't understand purpose of input/outputs shown in web page. And the echo the dialog web page help does not clarify for me. I'll probably figure it out eventually but for me, I'd rather have more examples so I don't have to make such an effort.

Bottom Line:
Great Product, I would recommend, but I could wish a little more technical material and the push to sign up for pay sessions puts me off.

BTW - THANKS TO @daromer (general info + advanced topics such as auto-level), HPPowerball (general experience, multiple longmon on same pack, fan hookup), and DIY Tech & Repairs (installation/setup) for info on Batrium as this has been my main education and all the info was serious and helpful and truthful!!!
#23
Btw I Am DIY tech and repairs Smile
The Ultimate DIY Solar and build place
YouTube / Forum system setup / My webpage  Diy Tech & Repairs

Current: 10kW Mpp Hybrid | 4kW PIP4048 | 2x PCM60x | 83kWh LiFePo4 | 10kWh 14s 18650 |  66*260W Poly
Upcoming: 14S 18650~30kWh | Automatic trip breakers, and alot more
#24
(05-08-2019, 06:24 PM)daromer Wrote: Btw I Am DIY tech and repairs Smile

Sorry!  I think I have some kind of dyslexia every other day.  Of course!   (I ment HPPowerwall - not ball AND was thinking of Average Joe).
In any case - cannot think you enough for your work as it inspired me to build my system.
hbpowerwall likes this post
#25
(05-08-2019, 06:15 PM)daromer Wrote: Sean: For all systems that I use yes (4).  And I was targeted with VAT/Import taxes on 3 of those (30% extra). So no im not paid to say its the best product in the world. They have their flaws and there is many other systems to choose of. But for me it have worked as I expected so far. Perhaps lucky?

Luck doesn't play any part in a commercial product working as advertised Daniel.

None of the 3 complete systems we purchased worked fully as advertised (they still don't) and I ran out of time and patience playing hide and seek for documentation, waiting for updates to resolves issues etc etc

I've still got a couple of reasonably sized systems running with Batrium products at home, I quite like them, but the quantity order went elsewhere. Jaron has previously offered to remote into a system to diagnose, I'm not sure if I'd have been expected to pay for that ..... the systems work quite well within a Victron ESS, apart from the occasional shunt locking, the system freezes entering/exiting bypass etc etc ... perhaps one day an update will resolve the remaining issues.

I've read again some of the Batrium related posts I started a year ago, it would appear that very little has changed, "with that said" I only received the Batrium branded screwdrivers with each order, perhaps UK customers didn't get the rose tinted glasses Daniel appears to have been issued with.

For what it's worth, the quantity order went to a Company who always replied to even the most technical of our questions within 24 hours, they also have a very comprehensive set of documentation available (which details functionality in great detail), and the evaluation units purchased worked exactly as advertised, reliably and without any recourse to time consuming hunting a broken website for clues.

Would I professionally recommend a Batrium BMS as being suited to an application requiring ultra reliable unattended operation today ? - certainly not, perhaps one day in the future.

Would I recommend a Batrium BMS as being suited to an application requiring a well featured, reasonably reliable BMS, that is monitored (by a competent human on a daily basis) today ? - yes, but only on the basis that the purchaser must be prepared to accept that not everyone has rose tinted glasses,or Daniel's lucky pants.

I wish Batrium well, I hope their new products are very successful and highly stable and individuals purchasing them have a better experience than has been outlined by some within this thread.
#26
(05-08-2019, 06:17 PM)OffGridInTheCity Wrote: Future Problem:
I'd like to use extension board and/or watchmon 4 to affect external relay - but I'm not an electronics person.  I understand wiring batteries in parallel/series BUT I don't understand purpose of input/outputs shown in web page.   And the echo the dialog web page help does not clarify for me.    I'll probably figure it out eventually but for me, I'd rather have more examples so I don't have to make such an effort.

Bottom Line:
Great Product,  I would recommend,  but I could wish a little more technical material and the push to sign up for pay sessions puts me off.

BTW - THANKS TO @daromer (general info + advanced topics such as auto-level),  HPPowerball (general experience, multiple longmon on same pack, fan hookup), and DIY Tech & Repairs (installation/setup) for info on Batrium as this has been my main education and all the info was serious and helpful and truthful!!!

I tried to convince Jaron on here a year ago that their support burden would dramatically decrease if they published better organised and comprehensive documentation such that users could resolve their own issues via the consumption of online officially published content - helping users to help themselves. They are a tiny company so I assume back then the focus was on development and maintaining an income stream. I hope paid for support in assisting users to implement documented, but non functioning, standard features wasnt factored into their revenue forecasts - paid for support for non standard and customisation is to be expected.

Oddly, till very recently, nearly all of the online content (other than the developers notes that forms the "help") has been produced by the likes of Peter, Daniel and Joe .... and this forum is still the only place where any in depth use of Batrium products is found.

The expansion board is relatively simple. I assume it's the features on the following link that you were trying to implement, as depicted in the schematic ? - the good news is that you'll likely not need much of the features offered. At a minimum you should be aiming to enable an automatic means (under faulty conditions) of disconnecting the AC load, and the DC input.

https://www.batrium.com/pages/expansionb...ring-guide
#27
(05-08-2019, 10:00 PM)Sean Wrote:
(05-08-2019, 06:17 PM)OffGridInTheCity Wrote: Future Problem:
I'd like to use extension board and/or watchmon 4 to affect external relay - but I'm not an electronics person.  I understand wiring batteries in parallel/series BUT I don't understand purpose of input/outputs shown in web page.   And the echo the dialog web page help does not clarify for me.    I'll probably figure it out eventually but for me, I'd rather have more examples so I don't have to make such an effort.

Bottom Line:
Great Product,  I would recommend,  but I could wish a little more technical material and the push to sign up for pay sessions puts me off.

BTW - THANKS TO @daromer (general info + advanced topics such as auto-level),  HPPowerball (general experience, multiple longmon on same pack, fan hookup), and DIY Tech & Repairs (installation/setup) for info on Batrium as this has been my main education and all the info was serious and helpful and truthful!!!

I tried to convince Jaron on here a year ago that their support burden would dramatically decrease if they published better organised and comprehensive documentation such that users could resolve their own issues via the consumption of online officially published content - helping users to help themselves. They are a tiny company so I assume back then the focus was on development and maintaining an income stream. I hope paid for support in assisting users to implement documented, but non functioning, standard features wasnt factored into their revenue forecasts - paid for support for non standard and customisation is to be expected.

Oddly, till very recently, nearly all of the online content (other than the developers notes that forms the "help") has been produced by the likes of Peter, Daniel and Joe .... and this forum is still the only place where any in depth use of Batrium products is found.

The expansion board is relatively simple. I assume it's the features on the following link that you were trying to implement, as depicted in the schematic ? - the good news is that you'll likely not need much of the features offered. At a minimum you should be aiming to enable an automatic means (under faulty conditions) of disconnecting the AC load, and the DC input.

https://www.batrium.com/pages/expansionb...ring-guide

Yes - these sections are a mystery to me.   For example, the top row (PWR  INPUTS  BATT CTL) - I just don't understand what this 'does' or how it relates to settings in the software.
 
The left had side (PWM  LOAD CTL  AIN  +5V) is equally a mystery - have no clue what this is for in physical world and again, how it relates to software settings.


This section shows 4 NO relays (I believe).  So I get that and see where I can assign software subset in Tool...   but I whish one was NC instead of all of them being NO.

The LEDs section I understand because someone did a youtube on it.   Otherwise it would be like the ones above - no clue.


What I would like is a simple NC relay that opens when a critical event occurs...  but I understand that I can use a NO one and add some additional hardware to get what I need.
#28
Batt Ctl - is DC input disconnection - the on and off symbols relate to coils within a breaker, one drives it to the on, the other to the off position.

The adjacent terminals are simple no or nc contacts which are used to provide confirmation back to the WM, by being opened or closed by the being driven on and off action.

The on/off logic is usually just the pulse on or pulse off option within critical.

I'll post some images later of a breaker that will make the above simpler to understand.

Load Ctl is as above - but for the AC output from your inverter.

PWM is undocumented - possibly intended for proportion control of diversion load when battery is full (making use of available PV/wind elsewhere when battery is full) - that's what I'd like it to be for but its use seems to be undocumented.

Here's the DC breakers I usually use - the coil for the off mechanism is fitted (24v version) this just needs to be pulsed to mechanically reverse the on/off lever - the solenoid coil, which can be used to drive the on/off lever back to the on position isn't fitted, but you can see where it goes. The other wire pair are the tripped signalling contacts.



For AC load disconnection I use the ABB S200 series, due to its wide input voltage range - you can use the Batrium listed one if you can ensure its coil only gets driven by 48v +/- a couple of volts.

These trips have a rod attached to the lever that mechanically trips the adjacent MCBs, to which you'd wire your AC loads - again these trips just need a pulse to operate.

https://uk.rs-online.com/mobile/p/produc...cpEALw_wcB



You've got the relay section sorted - just ensure you use them within their ratings - also consider having a DC to DC for providing a stable voltage for feeding other coils, relays and trips unless you've confirmed that the battery voltage (at all states of charge) is suitable.

I tend to break out the various inputs and outputs to another enclosure, which makes connections to larger relays and contractors easier.



Let us know if the above isn't clear or if you've still got gaps in your understanding.
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#29
(05-09-2019, 07:26 AM)Sean Wrote: Batt Ctl - is DC input disconnection - the on and off symbols relate to coils within a breaker, one drives it to the on, the other to the off position.

The adjacent terminals are simple no or nc contacts which are used to provide confirmation back to the WM, by being opened or closed by the being driven on and off action.

The on/off logic is usually just the pulse on or pulse off option within critical.

I'll post some images later of a breaker that will make the above simpler to understand.

Load Ctl is as above - but for the AC output from your inverter.

PWM is undocumented - possibly intended for proportion control of diversion load when battery is full (making use of available PV/wind elsewhere when battery is full) - that's what I'd like it to be for but its use seems to be undocumented.

Here's the DC breakers I usually use - the coil for the off mechanism is fitted (24v version) this just needs to be pulsed to mechanically reverse the on/off lever - the solenoid coil, which can be used to drive the on/off lever back to the on position isn't fitted, but you can see where it goes. The other wire pair are the tripped signalling contacts.



For AC load disconnection I use the ABB S200 series, due to its wide input voltage range - you can use the Batrium listed one if you can ensure its coil only gets driven by 48v +/- a couple of volts.

These trips have a rod attached to the lever that mechanically trips the adjacent MCBs, to which you'd wire your AC loads - again these trips just need a pulse to operate.

https://uk.rs-online.com/mobile/p/produc...cpEALw_wcB



You've got the relay section sorted - just ensure you use them within their ratings - also consider having a DC to DC for providing a stable voltage for feeding other coils, relays and trips unless you've confirmed that the battery voltage (at all states of charge) is suitable.

I tend to break out the various inputs and outputs to another enclosure, which makes connections to larger relays and contractors easier.



Let us know if the above isn't clear or if you've still got gaps in your understanding.

Thanks for the connecting info - some lights went off in my dark brain Smile

I see now - the BATT CTL section and other one are tailored for "Shunt Trip" devices.   I don't have this in my system and not planning on it and as such had not understood what a Shunt Trip really is  - e.g. "pluse" coils to turn on/off  (if I'm understanding correctly now).  This also explains "pulse" as I tend to think of relay coil current as on or off, not pulsed.     As far as my software configuration side questions - I also see now that  Hardware -> Expansion  Input and Output dropdowns relate to these.    Inputs 1, 2, 3, and 4 probably go with 03/04/05/06.


OK - I have a 40kwh battery -----[250amp Circuit Breaker]--->  AIMS 12,000w inverter[50amp tandem circuit breakers]----> Regular AC Distribution sub-panel  w/standard wiring circuit breakers.  

I use Midnite Classic 150 overall battery voltage Aux 1 relay to:
- Toggle Inverter on/off button (via remote jack wiring) to turn power on/off 
- To avoid overcharge by setting max charge at 4.0v * 14.     So not worried about overcharge as its unlikely some of the packs will go over 200ma higher than others...  but ....

What I don't have is:
-  hi/low pack(cell) voltage shutoff.    I'm most worried about low voltage cell shutoff.      It looks like I could use one of the general purpose relays or even a shunt trip for this and then by extension add high voltage shutoff.      Seems like if I get hi and low then any large imbalance will be noticed because either hi or low will shut system off. 

-  temperature.    The longmons don't cover physical packs - so its basically ambient temp.   This is in a basement with steady 13c to 24c year round environment and all 18650 cells are fused...   so I'm not losing sleep here.    But I have both Longmons and Midnite Classic temp probes for this.



Should I be worrying about anything beyond hi/low battery volts  hi/low pack volts, and temp?
(oh yes - I do have smoke detector and fire estinquisher within 4 feet of battery/inverter area Smile )
#30
(05-10-2019, 02:31 PM)OffGridInTheCity Wrote: ----

Should I be worrying about anything beyond hi/low battery volts  hi/low pack volts, and temp?
(oh yes - I do have smoke detector and fire estinquisher within 4 feet of battery/inverter area Smile )

Just beware, you cannot extinguish a lithium fire. Only slow it down, or contain it.


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