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Sustainability people, anyone dared to watch Dominion?
#11
Well done for adding religion into the mix.
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#12
Woah guys, I wanted to discuss sustainability. From an engineering standpoint, and I guess many of the people on this forum have some form of engineering traits/degrees, we like to measure, compare, optimize, streamline, innovate etcetera.

As much as we like to measure cell capacity, and minimize losses in our systems, I like to apply the same thinking to other aspects of life. This is what really got my mind going.
[Image: main-qimg-1468cd30f4b8efa3491025c8614711b3]

This is an energy pyramid, and it shows how only 10% of the energy “harvested” on a lower level is available on the next higher level (remaining 90% on each level is lost as “useless” heat energy).

By skipping one or two steps of the pyramid, and consuming further down the line, efficiency increases. We then use less resources and produce less greenhouse gases to go on with our daily lives.
Thoughts?
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#13
Would you mind posting the data sources used to generate that image please.
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#14
Facts straight out of Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_pyramid
Image generated by Henry Norman, https://www.quora.com/How-does-an-energy...a-food-web

In practical numbers, that we can actually work with, there have been studies conducted how inneficient our land usage is. Take a look at this

http://www.cowspiracy.com/facts/

So we could get away with 1/18 of the land we use today if we started to grow and eat directly the plants, instead of jumping up tropic levels. I find this quite mindblowing how inefficient we are acting right now!
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#15
I can't do debate via Wikipedia and images, sorry.

The issue I have with threads like this is that there's always a secondary agenda attached to what is usually raised as the primary concern. Yes the world has an issue with the finality of resources, but we aren't going to solve that by all becoming vegetarians.

Broadly, we have a world wide issue with consumption, not just of food but of everything, this is primarily due to Capitalism, which encourages, and is entirely dependent on continued and increasing consumption. The earth only has so much "stuff" from which we can make more "stuff", which usually has a limited lifespan and eventually ends up buried in landfill, that's not sustainable.

We don't all need to eat less meat, we all need to eat less. We need to consume less, and we need to recycle far more, and we certainly need to find an alternative to Capitalism.

Population control, penalties for over indulgence and fields full of PV, not four legs food is how to resolve the issue hinted at by those pyramids, not vegetarianism.
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#16
Forgive me for posting images mainly, I’m a visual learner so I like to get a quick overview.

I have no agenda. I am not associated with anything political. I just want to share interesting data with you, and let you draw your own conclusions.
I disagree on the suggestions you have for solving the sustainability. I like to go for the big things, the larger the contributor the better it is to solve it. Sure we can add PV, add penalties etc, but take a look at the current global sources for greenhouse gases.

Here in text format: https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/global-...sions-data
Here in a picture, sorry Big Grin
[Image: global_emissions_sector_2015.png]

So when people are asked what they think contributes to global warming the most, it’s usually transportation. This is clearly not the case at 14%, and there are three bigger contributors
1. Electricity and heat (25%)
2. Agriculture and forestry (24%)
3. Industry (21%)

We can’t yet fix the number one on the list, this change is slow and will happen over time (possibly with wind and PV!). Number three is Industry, very required at the moment for society.

What we can do however is switch up our consumption habits. By choosing to skip meat and dairy, we make an instant impact on the market.
A study from a few months back concluded with 95% confidence interval that going vegan lowers your (kgCO(2)e/day) from 7.19 -> 2.89
https://www.researchgate.net/publication..._in_the_UK

Sidenote, did you know that rainforest deforestation is 91% due to animal agriculture (cattle farming)?
http://documents.worldbank.org/curated/e...no1022.pdf
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#17
(10-19-2018, 10:49 AM)Dala Wrote: I have no agenda ......

What we can do however is switch up our consumption habits. By choosing to skip meat and dairy .......

You've very clearly just stated your agenda.

I agree that mankinds consumption of everything, not just food, needs to be drastically lowered, but you'll not encourage anyone to live a more sustainable lifestyle by feeding them dumbed down images and mandating what they eat.
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#18
Interesting data Dala.

I agree on sustainability. I agree that people need to change their consumption habits. As Sean brings out, that's not just food.

I work with grocery deliveries to stores. The amount of food that is wasted is sickening. I have seen full bucket loads, barrel full, dumpster full, of good food that is tossed because it "was out of date" or it touched the floor, or it was returned by the customer.
Just a few days ago I saw 1 store toss 30lbs of sweet potatoes, several pints of various berries, several bags of oranges and other fruits. Tossed into the compactor. I got a good look at it. The berries were fresh, they were still shiny from being plump. The potatoes were still clean and solid. No blemishes on the oranges. I wish I could of taken the whole lot home with me.

In your chart above, it shows Agriculture at 24%. Most people "assume" this is just diary cows, or for meat production in general. This is not the case. There is far more water used to water wheat, soy, corn, etc than for cows. There is far more fuel consumed in managing the aforementioned grains than with cows. There is far more man hours involved as well.
How do I know this? Well, it's common sense. Cows come to the feeder, the slaughter house, the transport depot, etc. Field food you must go out and work it.

Here's another to think about. The number state that cows use X amount of water during their growth. What they "don't" tell you, is that a large amount of that water the cows get from the very grass they eat. And in most locations, that grass is not water by farm equipment, but by the water that falls from the sky. So therefore, the water usage is drastically skewed.

Sean and I disagree on many things. However, this thing I do agree on. It's not going to be the reduction in meat consumption that's going to really do anything. The reduction in overall consumption is what needs to change. People need to stop having the mentality "Oh, I don't need this anymore", toss a perfectly good "whatever" into the trash, go out and buy and new "thingy" because it looks kewl, has more features that may/maynot work, or just because they want to have the latest and greatest and shiniest new toy.

It's sickening how much people waste.


Just to be clear. I have nothing against going vegetarian (as opposed to vegan). There are plenty of various types of non-meat foods available to keep one healthy, and potentially healthier. The biggest issue is, the darn alternatives are almost twice the cost when it shouldn't be. When I can get 7days of food for X dollars that includes meat, vs 2-3 times that cost for vegetarian foods. I, and many others, can't keep up that "sustainability".
If the politics in the food industry would regulate the prices more fairly and bring the prices down, there would be far more people who would eat far less meat and eat more vegetarian foods.

Yes, I make a distinction between vegan and vegetarian. I don't agree with veganism. Chickens produce non-fertile eggs every day. They were not bred that way. Turkeys do the same thing. It would be a waste of resources to just toss those eggs out. Same goes with cheeses or diary foods (this is all dairy, not just from cows). There are many animals that produce far more milk than what is for their young. And, they naturally produce that much, not that they were bred that way. I know cows have been bred to give far more milk than they used to. But they started out still giving more milk than the young could consume. There's a reason why mankind chose cows as their primary milk source.
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#19
(10-19-2018, 09:18 AM)Sean Wrote: We don't all need to eat less meat, we all need to eat less. We need to consume less, and we need to recycle far more

^ This sums up the main problem here perfectly.
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#20
I agree with the sustainability. I try to repair as much as possible, and help other people repair their tech products going when they break.

But I think you have some fact errors in the chicken scenario. Overtime, chickens have been bred to produce way more eggs than 100 years ago. in 1920, hens were outputting 150 eggs a year. This is now up to 250-300 eggs a year.

Also, I've been following some chicken debate in Sweden now, at Guldfågeln, they have 1800 hens with broken wings each day. The conditions are poor, antibiotics can only fix so much. The profit margins for the egg/meat companies make the conditions and quality suffer greatly. I guess it's OK if you're taking eggs from backyard hens, but scaling it up for massproduction will always have these issues. 

The price aspect you mentioned got me pondering. I actually spend less on food now compared to 2015. My daily lunch at work went from 6.5€ -> 4.0€, my purchases for cooking at home also went down. Meat here is way pricier than beans/oats/rice/veggies etc. Maybe this is some USA thing only? Atleast in Europe, veggies are always cheaper than meat.

Also eating less is maybe also an USA issue? Here in Finland we are generally very lean, I weigh in at 68kg lol (150lbs)
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