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Your car as a powerwall - for the grid!
#1
UK news story of electricity retailer Ovo's new plans to pay Leaf owners a monthly fee for the facility of using their car/battery/charger system to decouple generation and demand. 
https://www.theguardian.com/business/201...n-leaf-ovo
Linked within the story is a reference to their existing scheme for buyers of the (expensive?) powerwalls being built with second life ex-Leaf cells.
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#2
That idea isn't new though. I would bet that Tesla is working on something like this or is at least thinking about it as well. It is just a logical next step. Maybe not THE next step, but certainly one of them.
For the same reason we will have to focus on reusing electric car batteries after we don't want the car anymore. We are doing that now with crashed cars, in the future we will have to do it as we are now with old laptop batteries.
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#3
The point is that this isn't just an 'idea', it is an actual contract being offered. 

Just as Nissan are already re-marketing used car traction cells as powerwall products. And Ovo, today, have a contract offer for using those specific units for time-shifting electricity for the grid.

The unfortunate aspect is that these offerings are tied to complete systems of specific proprietary hardware. Got to start somewhere!
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#4
(10-04-2017, 09:41 AM)dougal Wrote: The point is that this isn't just an 'idea', it is an actual contract being offered. 

Just as Nissan are already re-marketing used car traction cells as powerwall products. And Ovo, today, have a contract offer for using those specific units for time-shifting electricity for the grid.

The unfortunate aspect is that these offerings are tied to complete systems of specific proprietary hardware. Got to start somewhere!

I really want to be able to use my Mercedes B250e as home battery. It is 36kw/h and parked on the drive most of the day every day!

We get 10-12 power cuts a year and it would save me building a powerwall!
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#5
10-12 power cuts a year is a substantial amount of power interruptions... I can see why you are so motivated to complete such a project.

Where I live power is so cheap and reliable that I am fighting with myself because as much as I enjoy batteries as a hobby, I will literally never receive an ROI on such a project. I would be building because I like it, not because I need it. To make matters worse, I am in an HOA and can't have solar panels. I am almost to the point I feel like giving up on such a project because I truly can't take advantage of it but it's still fun.

Moving back onto the point of this thread... I think it's a smart idea, but I have concerns about the wear and tear on the battery pack. Perhaps the extra cycles don't really pay off in the long terms, perhaps its a raw deal if the packs life is degraded to the point where it barely offsets the cost of a replacement, or reduced life on the car.
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#6
New battery is around £5000, they will pay £350 to use your battery and shorten the life by X (to be defined)... which then leaves you needing to buy a new battery for the car earlier.

Given the cells in the vehicles have a cycle life of around 1000 cycles and, lacking any more details, ovo could cycle your battery 120 times in a year (2 charge discharge intervals of 1 hour each at 7kW on a 24kWh pack).

For a £350 payment to deplete 12% of a battery costing £5000 to replace seems like the consumer is not the one going to benefit.

The economics need to be looked at a very closely and considered before letting a 3rd party cycle your battery for a relatively small fee.... When more details are released it might be interesting or a caution for Leaf buyers if they can work out the economics...

Just like Renault charging a relative premium/high lease rate on the battery, only to take those batteries, re-package them and sell them again as home storage units...

I believe that the average consumer is being short changed at the moment on vehicle batteries due to lack of detail and understanding from all parties involved...

Using the battery for covering power cuts is completely different, very viable and sensible option, but I think the ovo setup is going to be grid-tie only. Apparently (from what I was told by Tesla rep last year) the powerwall in the UK is also grid tie only at the moment because of the regulations and requirements needed to get more than 3.7kW of capacity connected and this would otherwise hinder sales......
Crimp Daddy likes this post
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#7
If you do not cycle the battery to the full extent, bud for instance keep it between 3,1 and 4,1 volt number of cycles goes up to between 5- 10.000 cycles depending of battery type and chemestry.
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#8
EV battery voltages are already constrained below 100% DoD and the approx 1000 cycle life already takes some of this into account. The cells in EV's are a compromise for more energy density above cycle life.

You may well get 5,000-10,000 cycles at 10% depth of discharge. 10,000 cycles at 10% DoD is the same energy throughput as 1000 cycles at 100% DoD... or in EV terms around 1100 cycles at 90% DoD.

You can get a reasonable increase at 10-90% charge state quite easily, yes I agree, but the way the article is written and knowing the way the market works there is little long term incentive for a 3rd party to manage the battery for "your best interests".

http://batteryblog.ca/2014/04/nimh-2000-cycles/
http://batteryblog.ca/wp-content/uploads...ycles2.jpg
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#9
(04-03-2018, 02:48 PM)DK100 Wrote: If you do not cycle the battery to the full extent, bud for instance keep it between 3,1 and 4,1 volt number of cycles goes up to between 5- 10.000 cycles depending of battery type and chemestry.

That is generally already the goal for “people in the know”.  Most of us here are well aware of that metric.
 
Most people buying these cars (the average consumer) are not battery enthusiasts and could easily fall into the trap of not understanding the economics or what they signed up for.
completelycharged likes this post
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#10
(04-02-2018, 10:32 PM)Crimp Daddy Wrote: 10-12 power cuts a year is a substantial amount of power interruptions... I can see why you are so motivated to complete such a project.

Where I live power is so cheap and reliable that I am fighting with myself because as much as I enjoy batteries as a hobby, I will literally never receive an ROI on such a project.  I would be building because I like it, not because I need it.  To make matters worse, I am in an HOA and can't have solar panels.  I am almost to the point I feel like giving up on such a project because I truly can't take advantage of it but it's still fun.

Moving back onto the point of this thread... I think it's a smart idea, but I have concerns about the wear and tear on the battery pack.  Perhaps the extra cycles don't really pay off in the long terms, perhaps its a raw deal if the packs life is degraded to the point where it barely offsets the cost of a replacement, or reduced life on the car.

i think it’s a bigger issue on cars like the Nissan Leaf than cars like my Mercedes which is actually a Tesla, as Tesla manage the thermals so much better than any other manufacturer out there.

there are Tesla’s out there with over a 50,000 charge cycles and they still have 85%+ original range left. Comparatively there are Nissan and Renault packs now with less than half their original range.

no Tesla packs in existence have gone below 75% original capacity yet, which is testimony to the incredible job Tesla do managing their packs.

also power walk type application is child’s play for a Tesla pack that can supply 200a at 460v peak to a pair of 450whp motors!
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