Solar panel access on pitched roofs

Boron

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Ok so you got a set of new flashy panels on top of your tiles roof. Wave bye as the sales rep disappears in a cloud of dust. So you get your system up and running, takes a year to get used to all the tech, powerwalls, inverters, switch gear, metering, selling to the Utility etc. Then the panels aren't doing as well as they used to? So you have to get access to check them on the roof. So Guys how do you go about Panel maintenance and repairs?

This is the point of my OP. For a conventional tiled pitched roof, anything up there involves a ROOFER - is the lowest species of bottom feeder in the Building Trades (UKwise).
Do you have to order up some scaffolding ££££?
How do you replace a faulty panel in the middle of an array, say?
How easy is it to replace a faulty MC4 in situ?
Change out an inbuilt MPPT box?
Clean all the panels (live near the sea, sea spray?)

Please tell us what kind of experience you had (particularly you Guys in OZ as you have a Gov sponsored campaign to cover ever roof in a Solar panel and sell the juice to the Utility IIRC). As you all live in bungalows, perhaps a guys just turns up with a cherry picker?
 
I don't have panels on the roof, but I've done roof maintenance. I just put an extension ladder against the side of the house, and climb right up on there and do my work.
Granted, where I live the roof pitch is only 2%, or 2:12 slope. So it's relatively flat, easy to walk on. We don't get snow around here so don't need anything steeper than that.
And yeah, I agree, from the stories I've heard, "roofers" are pretty much sleezy types of ppl because their work can't really be inspected by the homeowner in most cases. So they can get away with shady stuff.

But I'd like to read others experiences of how they work on theirs as well. Looking forward to the replies
 
I don't have panels on the roof, but I've done roof maintenance. I just put an extension ladder against the side of the house, and climb right up on there and do my work.
Granted, where I live the roof pitch is only 2%, or 2:12 slope. So it's relatively flat, easy to walk on. We don't get snow around here so don't need anything steeper than that.
And yeah, I agree, from the stories I've heard, "roofers" are pretty much sleezy types of ppl because their work can't really be inspected by the homeowner in most cases. So they can get away with shady stuff.

But I'd like to read others experiences of how they work on theirs as well. Looking forward to the replies
Thanx for that @Korishan , yes flat roofs/single storey must be easy. But may I ask , say you have a large area of say 6x6 panels, can you walk on them? Do you have to use scaffold boards to walk on (like you do with corrugated asbestos cent sheets etc)? Say you have to remove a 1m x 2m panel in the middle, whats the procedure? Even handling that on a slightly windy day is hazardous? Start from the bottom and remove a panel and work your way up (like roof tiles). Do the panels have an easy half twist clamp system, do you have to use suction clamps, like glaziers do with large sheets of glass? The glossy info doesnt make any of this clear - presuming the owner will call out $$$$ the installation company (if still in business).
If the panels are quality then they will be covered with glass (not plastic sheet). Thats heavy and fragile so a 2 man job?
Get any problem with a roof leaking its all got to come up? Especially round the stanchions. If installing on a flat roof (notoriuous for leaks) maybe you have to re - cover the roof every 5 years?

You might expect these panels to interlock like roof tiles so rain can only flow downwards (but the wind could blow it slant wise?)
Are these panels hurricane resistant?

The more I think about it, seems kinda Mickey Mouse to me? But it must kinda work?

We really need to know what User experience is out there with physical maintenance, must be a million+ in use?
 
But may I ask , say you have a large area of say 6x6 panels, can you walk on them? Do you have to use scaffold boards to walk on
I wouldn't walk on solar panels. I doubt they are that tough to handle that kind of force. Granted, they are rated for hail stone impacts 🤔 Maybe if wearing big soled boots/shoes to help distribute weight.
Even handling that on a slightly windy day is hazardous?
I wouldn't even attempt it during windy days, tbh. I've worked with sheets of plywood, 4x8 (1.2m x 2.4m), and the wind wants to take off with those. Not a fun experience. I could just imagine what that'd be like surrounded with stuff that mounted off the roof even an inch. So easy to trip and go tumbling.
Do the panels have an easy half twist clamp system
Panels that are properly installed have clips with screw that go down into the railing below. A single clip holds on to 2 panels usually, something like this:
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Then you just loose the screw and you can slide the panel out. Of if that doesn't work, remove the clip completely and pick the panel up, after disconnecting the MC4 (or whatever connector) first, of course.

Start from the bottom and remove a panel and work your way up (like roof tiles).
If the panels are installed with spaces between rows, you can just go to any row and work on any panel. They aren't installed in a tiled fashion, otherwise the lapping panel would cause a shadow on the lapped panel, or create a spot for water to pool up during heavy rains.

do you have to use suction clamps
This might actually make removing a little easier, depending on how they are mounted. Of the various installations/removals I've seen, never seen on of these used, though, as the frame is easy to grab on to. Remember the panels edging is there for adding strength to the panel. So there's a lot of "lip" to get a firm hold of.

If the panels are quality then they will be covered with glass (not plastic sheet). Thats heavy and fragile so a 2 man job?
All panels that I'm aware of use glass, not plastic/plexiglass. This is because it's in direct sunlight and more importantly, direct UV exposure. Plastic and Plexiglass (aka Lexan) will crack over time, turn yellow, and even warp due to the enormous amount of constant heat applied to it.
Panels usually only weigh about 20lbs, I think. I was able to easily pick up the few I have with almost zero effort, other than just being awkward. Weight isn't really an issue.
The glass used is tempered. Similar to windshield glass, or shower door glass. I'm not sure of grade of glass, though. It would be interesting if the glass used is from those who make Gorilla Glass, ya know, for cell phones and such.

Get any problem with a roof leaking its all got to come up? Especially round the stanchions.
Yup, and that's one major reason why I won't be installing panels on my roof. I don't like the idea of this being the case. And if the panels are installed mid-way between the shingles life span are, you'd be wasting money in the long run because you need to have the panels removed first, which can be almost as much as the initial installation, and some times more, depending on angles and how many runs you have, and then re-installed after the roof work is done.
Best is to have the roof re-done then have the panels installed. That way you get a fresh 25 year life span on both the panels and roof. But realistically, with panels covering the roof, it would most likely extend the life of the shingles drastically. At least the portion that's covered.
Metal roofs I don't know a whole lot about, but I imagine they last a lot longer anyways.
You might expect these panels to interlock like roof tiles so rain can only flow downwards (but the wind could blow it slant wise?)
Are these panels hurricane resistant?
Most panels (like 99%) do not interlock this way. However, there is one company, yeah only ONE! That one is Tesla. They are the only ones with Solar Tiles, and they will interlock and overlap like shingles do.
The panels themselves are pretty resilient. The major issue is the mounting hardware. If it's not installed properly, the high winds could rip them right off the roof, damaging the roof and allowing the wind that would otherwise be meh to it, tear it shreds. Compromised integrity. Another reason I don't plan on installing on the roof.
This mounting requires multiple anchoring points of the rails to the roof. When this is done the shingles are lifted up and the bracket is attached directly where the truss is located, so that it goes into thick structural wood (thick compared to the sheeting of the roof itself). Considering that trusses are usually 16" apart (at least in the US), it's pretty easy to figure out where they are. Plus they usually stick out where the eaves are and are visible.

Most water just flows off the ends of the panels onto the roof and goes on it's merry way like normal.

The more I think about it, seems kinda Mickey Mouse to me? But it must kinda work?
lol Yeah, it can seem that way. But that's why there are loads of regulations of how it's supposed to be installed. Not that every installer follows these or not, tho :rolleyes:
 
Thanx @Korishan , just cos Im paranoid doesnt make me wrong then. OBTW a corollary - just cos Im OCD doesnt make me right. (quote from a giant Mack Truck RV unit.)
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEgFafmsJfk

the salutary point ca 13:00 is that a moments inattention (late in the day) and he subsequently trashed a $1700 inverter, all because to those Cheap Charlie Grip Terminals - Victron should hang their head in shame
 
I thought I should post this vid cos I found it very informative, step by step demonstration of how a large panel array "should" be installed on a pitched roof. Ignore the commercial plugs etc its very detailed devil-wise.

Note this is a favourable 22deg pitch and wouldnt be so blasé about a 40deg pitch. I wonder if you could use crawling boards to access panels needing attention? The whole system seems to have "Optimiser" boxes on each which communicate with Phone App. That system seems to have all the bases covered. I wonder what the installed cost of the whole 9kW system is? My guess is that if Average Joe doesnt invest in a comprehensive system like this then Cheap Charlie will fail him and he will have wasted his money. But this is a DIY place so rule of thumb is we do it for 1/3rd of the cost but we need skill and have to learn a lot, but we are probably the only competent person who can run and maintain it all.

Begs the question, if you are looking to buy a house with a DIY Solar Installation what will you inherit? Does it significantly deprecate the house value? DIY system is like a wooden leg then? Hmm never seen that mentioned anywhere?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkqUvd4c1-U&list=PLatrqi1jTIbubsQM_A2S2hKIQQlfwltl_


See that kid walk backwards ready to trip over the ridge and roll off the other side (no harness)

I wouldnt favour those rail mounted push-in cage clamp terminals in the junction box for high current 50-100A. Bolted ring terms every time for me.
1709825635050.png


How can you justify using this technology for high current dc what ever the Makers claimed rating? Its hard enough making a reliable bolted ring terminal connection AFAIK. Push in types were invented to save installation time and overcome the fault of a loose or uncompleted screw clamp terminal situation for low current say <10A

Clearly the dc distribution is all to NEC and very tidy. Note 400Vdc total 9 kW. I wonder if its possible to have an interlock that prevents a lay person trying to operate those breakers under load (ca 50A at 400Vdc)? I see that as a weak point in this system. I didnt see any batteries involved, so switch off the ac supply side from the inverter first - but no warning labels?

IMHO its a misnomer to call those "breakers", they should be termed "maintenance isolators". Average Joe wont appreciate the difference!
 
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Begs the question, if you are looking to buy a house with a DIY Solar Installation what will you inherit? Does it significantly deprecate the house value? DIY system is like a wooden leg then? Hmm never seen that mentioned anywhere?
As far as I know, I think any kind of solar system installed, DIY or Licensed, installation will increase house/property value. The big kicker here is that if the residence is being sold with DIY system, it would be a good idea to have the local EE come and inspect and make sure it's up to standards, either as a buyer or a seller. Because if you plan on putting insurance on the home, you're going to need to the EE to inspect it anyways to cover the equipment. Otherwise the insurance company will just say "See Ya Long Face Charlie"

Also, if selling, then having the EE check things over to verify it will help solidify the increase in the market value of the property. By how much I have no idea.

I wouldnt favour those rail mounted push-in cage clamp terminals in the junction box for high current 50-100A
I personally don't like these kinds of connectors for any kind of connection that's going to be permanent installation. The springs can weaken over time and become loose.
Just like that video you posted earlier about the guy loosing his $1700 inverter due to lack of proper wire installation. Needed 3/4" of bare wire pushed into a clamp connector instead of using screw down terminals :rolleyes:

IMHO its a misnomer to call those "breakers", they should be termed "maintenance isolators"
Well, they are "breaking" the flow of current, albeit only through manual operation :p
 
Erm
Well, they are "breaking" the flow of current, albeit only through manual operation :p
That is the popular misconception. Their function is to break the ability for current to flow - namely isolate the upstream circuit. Granted that you may be able to interrupt a small dc current (but how small and what damage to contacts?). The imperative must be to shut down load downside of the inverter then the inverter itself in that order. I wonder how many households are sufficiently disciplined as such eg a big red panic button?

The vid on installation showed a 400V 9kW system coming into the inverter (that scares me as does 3phase 415Vac). IMHO you dont have the last resort to use cable cutters on the solar incomers (above ELV 48V). A whole full body protection would be needed as worn by operators who have to go into MV switchgear rooms). Average Joe shouldnt be encourage to go anywhere near that level of supply (anymore than say a 3 phase ac system).

Thinking about it, MV Solar systems on domestic roofs should be prohibited? Only for farms at ground level. Once up there and installed, you dont have the means for switching them off (other than relying on the electronic "Optomisers" which you hope default to restricting panels to a very low level, or covering the panels over with a blanket).

@Korishan
I personally don't like these kinds of connectors for any kind of connection that's going to be permanent installation.
Agreed 100%, I dont like MC4's - heresy!!!!! I favour unbroken cables all the way from panels down to a proper junction boxes under eaves. It means more cable. You need to design your cable runs and trunking - no connectors on the roof! I repairs are required then use an IP65 JB with ring terminals - then apply liberal coating of Si grease - after all bolting complete, dont let grease into contact surface . BTW there is no such thing as conductive grease - con trick, used in Autos cos battery terminals always corroded.

IMHO there's no justification for using expensive Solar cables when making local 24V panel connections with wires run in trunking. Ordinary Auto quality wire is perfectly sound and rated for 20A - more heresy!!!!!!

One thing I would say from my experience is that you must protect your kit from wind damage. I dont mean gales, twisters etc. I mean that loose item with be persistently flapping about and over time the continual flexing causes material to fatigue, become brittle and break. So wiring, coils etc must be fully firmly clamped down (if not in trunking). Cable Zip Ties are not infallible - beware Cheap Charlie here - Black Nylon 66 suited for outdoor use (avoid direct sunlight as far as possible - even then these Ties might not last 10 years before becoming brittle as happened to me)

Screenshot 2024-03-08 093550.png


This looks neat ca $10, used for car trailers, so fine for ELV ring terminations, or mount an array of these in a larger cabinet. Whats not to like?
 
A quick sketch of short crawl board for use across solar panels. Cheap solution for DIYer, make from folded Aluminium or plywood. Hope you get the essence of the idea
Screenshot 2024-03-08 103338.png
 
Their function is to break the ability for current to flow - namely isolate the upstream circuit. Granted that you may be able to interrupt a small dc current (but how small and what damage to contacts?).
If the breakers are DC rated and properly sized for the current loads, then they do just that. These DC breakers have arc wicking shields internally to pull the arc away from the two main contacts. At least, the good ones do. Cheap knock offs and/or ones that are not properly rated for the application will just turn to a pile of black mess if disconnected improperly.

One thing I would say from my experience is that you must protect your kit from wind damage. I dont mean gales, twisters etc. I mean that loose item with be persistently flapping about and over time the continual flexing causes material to fatigue, become brittle and break.
yeah definitely. That's why most installations have pretty decently sized bolts to hold everything down and the aluminum channeling is pretty thick as well. This stuff doesn't flex very easily.
Not sure what the NEC, or what ever organization handles this stuff, says specifically, but I'm sure if the bracketry can handle Hurricane winds up to 125mph, then they'd be handle the jostling of the random low speed winds. Hurricane winds are not constant blasts like being in front of a fan. It can be a hard, constantly changing, pulsating, hammering kind of wind. Sure the weather stations show a relatively constant flow, but that's only in certain locations and times as the storm passes. Like <20% of the whole storm passing overhead. I've seen pine trees that are 150ft tall get swayed one way, and a few seconds later they are bent as much in the opposite direction. And I mean bent over like tall grass gets bent over.

mean that loose item with be persistently flapping about and over time the continual flexing causes material to fatigue, become brittle and break. So wiring, coils etc must be fully firmly clamped down
Solar installers have been doing this for 20+ years. Regulations have gotten a lot more precise on what is and is not allowed. In all that time, I think they've pretty much figured out what is the best way to attach panels to a roof safely without causing damage to home or others if they came loose. Not to mention the safety of the electrical connections. As far as MC4's go, the truly legit ones are probably just fine. It's all those cheaper (not even super cheap either) ones that are causing the issues. And the biggest issue is you don't know if the installers are getting the correct ones, or of they skimped out on some of that stuff to make more $$.
But as DIYer, we wouldn't have to worry about this as we could purchase exactly what is to spec/regulations and know it's done correctly.


As far as the OP title, my biggest issue with roof mounted is the cleaning and general maintenance of the panels. It's extremely difficult to do that when they are mounted up in the air like that, and steeper pitched roofs make it even more dangerous. But not everyone has large plots of land they can install the panels at ground level and space is a premium.
 
If the breakers are DC rated and properly sized for the current loads, then they do just that. These DC breakers have arc wicking shields internally to pull the arc away from the two main contacts.
This is the bit in the installation vid 30:26 that made me spit my dummy out. This is the Solar E kit supplied and its a standard roller turret quarter turn selector switch. There is no way that should ever be used for live load disconnect, no arc quenching inside its design. Not like the MCBs you are referring to. Company like SE is negligent in supply this type for this position. All too easy for Average Joe to think its a power breaker. Do you agree?
Screenshot 2024-03-08 142658.png
 
@Korishan , just had some info from my neighbours on solar panels
One guy had some installed and within a month it became a heavily populated place for roosting pigeons. The became a terrible pest spreading their shite everywhere as they do and also creating an unpleasant pile along the edges where they roosted. He had his panels removed.
Another, guy was sold a panel deal to resell power into the grid Utility, he quickly found that his output was nowhere near the claimed level and it would take 5-10 years before payback, plus the Utility kept manipulating the rates without notice or consent. He had those taken down and threatened the company with a misselling suit - he was a barrister - this was a Gov sponsored scheme quickly withdrawn. Another wanting to sell his house was advised to have them removed as it was an old system and would create a negative issue with a surveyer. Yet another guy had a set of panels installed on his Company work shed, large system, supposed to save him on his significant electric bill during the day. His accountant advised that his power intake no way justified the capital cost of installation. He vowed never to install any such kit on his other workshops through out the uk. He reckons his partner was sold on grossly inflated power generation prospects vs annual maintenance cleaning which took up any cost savings he might have made from his electric bill. We had a lot of scams like that here a few years back.
The biggest public scandal was Thurrock Council who speculated of a £5million Solar Farm development - some 200 miles way across country. The power figures were grossly exagerated as were the annual running costs, cleaning, land maintenance, grass cutting, hedges, fencing etc. The Council is now bankrupt and owes £1million + gambling with public money and is trying to sell the farm. The Developer is basking in Monaco on the proceeds of a large management fee he charged.

It seems you have matters much more tightly controlled across the pond and installations are inspected by a PE EE with additional training in solar systems 5star*****. Our system is rubbish by comparison.
 
This is all quite interesting (y) Actually, I never thought about the dangers of disconnecting the system under load, thanks for pointing that out. For me it's normal to switch everything off (in the right order) before doing maintenance, but it's not so obvious, you're right.

I look at solar panels from another point of view: for me they're (nearly) maintenance-free. Sure, as for any other expensive piece of the house it may happen that something breaks or must be replaced. But because of where they're placed (away from people!) and for their simple design, the probability for them to break is very low compared to anything else in the house. In 4 years I rarely cleaned or touched the panels (and they always produce more or less the same current); the exposed cables right under the panels have lost some of their colour (the rest of the cabling travels in tubes). I clean them in summer if it rains sand, comes from the desert I suppose; I simply bought myself a 10ft pole (are they called "cableway poles"?).

I'm for off-grid solar because electric companies can change the contract anytime and I might not like the new conditions. In Italy they don't pay much for you the electricity you produce and if you need to buy it back, you'll pay it from 4 to 10 times more what they pay you.

Ehm... last thing, maybe your neighbours are cursed or something LOL :D to keep pidgeons away an ultrasonic device will do fine.
 
to keep pigeons away an ultrasonic device will do fine
Rumour has it that pigeons quickly become habituated to sounds of any sort and you have to spend a lot of monitoring time changing sound clips and periods and using all manner of different methods as well etc. If it were that simple everyone would be doing it.

Glad you got the point about a breaker switch, there are many YT vids showing the effect of a dc arc. A 48V system needs a rapid separation of at least 5cm between switch contacts. IMHO a knife switch is the best old school solution (ca $10) but only up to <50Vdc, wear gloves and googles for the flash - can be 1000x more intense than a stick welding arc but you must aim for a separation of <10msec. last resort is to keep cable cutters to hand.
 
It seems you have matters much more tightly controlled across the pond and installations are inspected by a PE EE with additional training in solar systems 5star*****. Our system is rubbish by comparison.
Before our systems can be grid-tied for net metering, the system has to be inspected by a licensed EE, authorized by the Electric Company at that. Can't be just some rando, or your cousin (well, unless your cousin is certified by the E.Co :p )
This makes things a bit harder for scammers. However, we do still have scammers around that will install the systems and use cheap components. then after they did X number of installs within a very short period of time, the company folds and the phone numbers no longer work. They get away with millions in the end.

became a heavily populated place for roosting pigeons. The became a terrible pest spreading their shite everywhere as they do and also creating an unpleasant pile along the edges where they roosted
There's actually addons you can put on the edges of the panels that'll help with this. They are tiny spikes a few inches long. Obviously you can't install this on the glass portion, but the edges should suffice for the most part.

😅 I thought of something insidious. Run small bare wires along the surface of the panels, and then say the odd wires are connected to ground, and the even wires are connected to an electric fence unit. Those birds land and make contact across both wires ⚡⚡⚡ and they fly off!! 🤣🤣
Could even make it motion sensor activated so it's not always running.
 
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